Social Worker Erin Maloney on the Innocent Lives Foundation

An Interview with Social Worker Erin Maloney

Erin Maloney, LCSW is the Director of Wellness for the Innocent Lives Foundation. She is a licensed clinical social worker specializing in trauma, addiction, ADHD, anxiety, depression, and other mood disorders.

Theresa Nair:  Thank you for joining us today for this installment of the Seattle Psychiatrist Interview series. I'm Theresa Nair, a research intern at Seattle Anxiety Specialists. We are a Seattle-based psychiatry, psychology and psychotherapy practice specializing in anxiety disorders.

I'd like to welcome with us clinical social worker, Erin Maloney, who is the Director of Wellness for the Innocent Lives Foundation. Erin earned her Bachelor Degree of Science and Psychology from St. Joseph's University in Philadelphia, and a Master's Degree in Social Work from Widener University in Chester.

She is currently a licensed clinical social worker specializing in trauma, addiction, secondary trauma, ADHD, anxiety, depression, and other mood disorders. Thank you for joining us today, Erin.

Erin Maloney:  Thank you for having me.

Theresa Nair:  Before we get started, can you please tell us a little bit more about yourself and what made you interested in studying clinical social work?

Erin Maloney:  Absolutely. I am a little bit about me. I am a mother of three. I also have a husband and a dog. I live in Scranton, Pennsylvania, like “The Office”. I have always been interested in mental health, actually since a very young age. I told my mom probably about five, six years old that I wanted to become a therapist and she just pushed me along to do whatever I wanted and follow my dreams.

I did, I entered into psychology and I loved it and I worked for quite a bit with my Bachelor's doing case management type work, but I realized I needed to further my education. While I was finished with my Bachelor's, I saw a plethora of therapists in the company that I worked for. It was a nonprofit behavioral health clinic and I saw everybody from LPCs to LSWs, LMFTs, every acronym in the book.

But my immediate supervisor was an LCSW and I found that she had the most, at the time for me, the most variety of opportunities. She could be a director of a program we might have had for behavioral health for children. Or, she could have actually done private practice type work, and I liked that because I could see a lot of settings.

That's when I decided to embark into Widener. I worked full time but got my Master's at night, and I really enjoyed finding that I wanted to keep pursuing from my Masters to license into the clinical license. That's how I got started in it. Always had an interest, always had an interest in people's minds and how it worked.

Theresa Nair:  That's great. It's wonderful when you feel like you're pursuing your purpose and even your calling.

Erin Maloney:  Yes, yes.

Theresa Nair:  For those who are not familiar with your organization, I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about the mission of the Innocent Lives Foundation and how it works to bring anonymous child predators to justice?

Erin Maloney:  Absolutely. I just want to say at this point, just a quick little trigger warning. My foundation does deal with trauma related to children and exploitation in any sort of assault. So just a little trigger if anybody is listening in to take care of yourself before or after. I don't think much will come up, but I always like to give that in advance.

Innocent Lives Foundation, what we do is our mission is to do that. We try to get the predators who are hiding online behind the scenes who are trying to exploit children or publish and/or share materials of, we call CSAM, Child Sexual Assault Material. That's our biggest mission is to bring to light the people hiding, to get them out of the dark and get them prosecuted properly.

Now, one of the things I always like to mention is we are non-vigilante. That is a very important part of our mission. We do not set ourselves up as young children. We do not try to entrap perpetrators. This is actually information we find on the open web. It's unbelievable what you would find on the open web, but we use what they call OSINT, which is open-source intelligence. It's basically anything any of us could find on the web, but they know where and how to look specifically for predators laying right within our children.

What we do at the ILF is we get leads and it could be come from, we have a form right on our website that people can enter. It could be a parent concerned about maybe who their children are chatting with. We might get law enforcement to say, "Hey, we could really use some good computer diving hacking skills to find out this case."

Or, it could actually come directly from somebody who might give it to us. Or, our researchers actually are doing the research and they can find a lead. Just be so maybe a username or somebody having an inappropriate photo up. We have, at ILF, different aspects that I wanted to go into because it sounds very confusing. What are you guys doing?

We have three distinct teams. We have what we call The PIT, which is Predator Identification Team, and they're our researchers and they are phenomenal hackers. We call them good guy hackers. They use their skills for good and they're all volunteers. But what they do is they are literally the ones behind the computer doing all the research for us finding this.

We have Education and Outreach Team, which those are our people who are more about putting out blogs, putting out educational materials, fundraising for us. They're really good for caregivers who might be struggling with anything like this.

Then lastly, we have a Development Team and what they do is they actually protect our PIT by developing tools that they can use to protect our PIT people from what they see. One of the big things we have is a blur tool so that our researchers are not seeing actual skin, they just see a blurred image and they can unblur it enough to maybe see a face if they need it, but it's to help them not be exposed to so much content in terms of that.

Those are our three distinct teams, and so what we do at ILF is we all work together in tandem to basically have that one common mission to help bring predators out of the light.

Theresa Nair:  That's great. I mean it's really interesting that you have the blur tool.

Erin Maloney:  Yes.

Theresa Nair:  Because I was wondering, how do you search for this without seeing all of it? So, that would be helpful.

Erin Maloney:  Yes, yes. We very much try to protect. Unfortunately, sometimes the text cases are some of the hardest because you're reading it and your mind goes there, but we still try to protect as much as can.

Theresa Nair:  Is that on the general internet or what's referred to as the dark web?

Erin Maloney:  Yes. Yeah. There is a whole dark web that we are aware of, but we actually try to leave that to law enforcement to do themselves because it is such a gray area. We keep everything above board. Like I said, we're trying to not be vigilantes, not get ourselves in trouble.

Everything people do, even our researchers do things on a device of ours so they're never caught with any sort of material or viewing. We would never want anybody be in trouble of any sort, so everything is done through a computer they have from us with tools and things like that to protect them.

Theresa Nair:  Okay, that's good. That helps to clarify how you even do something like this?

Erin Maloney:  Yes, yes, exactly.

Theresa Nair:  You spend a lot of your time working with volunteers within the organization, the people who are using their skills in order to help identify child predators. You're providing counseling services, I believe. Can you explain why it's important to provide this type of service to the volunteers, and what types of mental health impacts can result from this line of work?

Erin Maloney:  Absolutely. As this started, my CEO he realized quickly, he actually started Innocent Lives Foundation by accident. He is what they call a pen tester. His company does do security breaches for companies to help them learn how to improve the security of their companies.

In doing so, he accidentally stumbled upon child sexual assault material on somebody's device and was able to turn that into law enforcement. It was very validating and reassuring for him and he thought, "I did this so easily, why couldn't we do this as something like a nonprofit or a mission?" He started it from there, which really led to, but he knew the importance of the mental health piece. He said, "If we do this, we have to make sure we're not harming anybody in doing so."

That's how it's always been a proponent since day one. I'm part of every aspect from when they get onboarded. We have a very extensive onboarding. People go through various interviews, and one is a wellness assessment with me because again, we are trying not to damage anybody. If there's significant trauma that's maybe unprocessed or raw still, we're not going to want to have somebody in that capacity working right now with us.

By doing that now you had said, so there's the component of me meeting them early on and then I actually meet with them once a month if they are what we call The PIT, so at minimum they have to meet with me once a month. If you are in another aspect of our team like Education Outreach or Development, you only have to reach out with me once every three months because obviously they're not dealing with the content as much. Like I said, it's different timeframes for different people.

So, that's how I work with them. Now, if somebody has a already current mental health... Now remember, these people are coming voluntarily and not all of them have a psychological disorder. Not all of them have an Axis 1 diagnosis. However, some do and when they do, I make it very clear that I'm more of a wellness piece. If they need extensive work, if there's somebody that I sense needs almost weekly sessions or if they have an addiction they're struggling with or anything even more significant, then I definitely refer them out to a private therapist in their area and/or medication management or other resources.

Then I actually collaborate with any of the people they need me to collaborate with because it is such a unique setting situation. If a therapist needs a little bit of advice or what we do where we do, I'll consult with them as well. I'm involved with them quite a bit, at least once a month and I have a very good rapport with all the volunteers.

Theresa Nair:  Do you find that people may need more services the longer that they do this? Or maybe after particular incidents? Are there maybe something in particular that they find or is it steady?

Erin Maloney:  No, you know what it is? Actually, it's not the work that I notice, it's life changes that impact their volunteering with me. When I say that, we have new parents, for example. Let's say a volunteer has never been a parent, but suddenly they're a parent and they might be one of our researchers. They may not suddenly be able to stomach what they once stomached, and so they may very well say, "I cannot."

We actually have a pause program which is completely non punitive. It's something the volunteer can initiate, or myself if I really sense somebody's just not doing well, I'd encourage that. Really, up to 90 days they can just quietly stay with us. They can join meetings if they want, they can meet with me if they want, but they're not required to do any sort of minimal work for us to keep them active as a volunteer, which is nice.

Then the other option is we also have moving around. We had one PIT member who had a hard time, again with children, and almost sometimes people could actually put their child's face on a victim, which you'd never want to see happen. That is, we never want to damage anybody. So, that person actually still wanted to be with our mission so they stepped aside to Education Outreach and they write educational blogs, or they might speak publicly at a local community event for themselves.

It's really neat. You can still move around and help with that very same mission, but not damage yourself psychologically if you are struggling. I don't find the work... I feel like if people are already here in the mindset to do this type of work, then they've either been exposed to things or they're pretty prepared to compartmentalize their brain to step into this work and step out of this work.

Theresa Nair:  That's interesting because you would assume that maybe it was something that they saw. But it's interesting that it's more life changes that they might be going through.

Erin Maloney:  It truly is. Yep.

Theresa Nair:  And what they're able to view at different points in their life.

Erin Maloney:  We have a very strong level system, that when they start, they start at a very bare... it's more just finding leads. Maybe finding usernames that might be connected to something, and then there's levels. We're not going to have somebody brand new coming in exposed to something that might be very horrific.

I don't even, age is a big factor. Maybe younger children might be too difficult for them, so we're not going to do that. We're going to have them work up in levels and so that they're not really exposed to anything too much too fast because they could process with me the whole time they're doing it whether they're okay or not with that.

I'll check in on them with their case and how it's affecting them and generally fits good and they seem like they're confident with it, then they can move up in the level system, if you will.

Theresa Nair:  Sounds like there's a lot of options for volunteering.

Erin Maloney:  Yes, yes. We do not let it damage or harm anybody because they're helping us. They're volunteering for us, so we would never want to do anything that could hurt somebody.

Theresa Nair:  Okay. I know you've mentioned, and it says on the webpage as well, that you use cognitive behavioral therapy to assist your work with Innocent Lives Foundation.

Erin Maloney:  Yeah.

Theresa Nair:  Could you talk a little bit about how you use that, and then also if there's any other techniques that you find to be productive?

Erin Maloney:  Absolutely. Like I said before, my wellness sessions are typical check-ins. How are you doing, tell me what's going on in your life? But what I listen for and people know, all the volunteers know I use cognitive behavioral therapy because I'm listening for any sort of negative or illogical thoughts and they know that and they know when I can pinpoint that, what I might hear.

If I sense that somebody's really struggling with something, then we will start using cognitive behavioral techniques to see if we can figure out whether this is something more pressing, either a budding anxiety disorder. Or, if this is just something in their lives, maybe an adjustment to something that they're dealing with.

I do a lot of reframing. If I initially hear them say something negative, I might put it in a different reframe. If they're like, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah" and they get that and I don't hear it again, then I realize they might have just been dealing with something. What I do a lot of with the volunteers is activity scheduling in terms of cognitive behavioral therapy. Because what we do is you would not be able to necessarily do this work in front of your family in the middle maybe of a work day. There's a lot of this content that cannot be exposed. We have to activity schedule, is it best to do this maybe an hour? But you don't want to do it right before bed either. Maybe there's an evening hour that this is best for. Or, perhaps you have a quiet hour in the day with nobody around you. We do that to find the best for a person to pick the time that they can do this type of work.

Role playing. If somebody's struggling with anything really in their lives, but in particular maybe wanting to switch gears in ILF, I might help role play with them. Maybe if they want to approach that with our COO and how they might be able to switch over into a different capacity.

So, I do a lot, now again, if I sense it's something more, then I will encourage them to seek out therapy on an ongoing basis so they can do real true weekly or even twice a week sessions if needed. But generally with some cognitive behavioral therapy, I could figure out if it's something more or not, and that's what I tend to do.

Theresa Nair:  Okay, and do you tend to see any increases in anxiety or depression from the volunteers when they work for maybe an extended period of time on this?

Erin Maloney:  Well, it's funny you said that. If I do sense that, then that's again where I will go into that pause option. "Hey, do you need to pause? Are things getting too much for you?" But it's funny you say that, I've actually seen it go both ways. Where I've seen it in the negative might be, again, if they have a, let's say they're starting a new job position and this is their volunteer position, they might have too much on their plate and so their anxiety's increasing and then they have guilt about not doing their volunteer work, then there's all that.

If I sense that, then we definitely encourage a pause and again, a pause could be 30 days. It doesn't have to be 90 days, but we just encourage that you take a little mental break, take a break from us and come back when you're refreshed and ready.

However, it goes on the other side where this work is very validating sometimes. Because a lot of our volunteers may either have been a survivor of assault in their past. They could have been groomed as a child themselves, or they have a family member who this maybe impacts. When they have a case that's a win, that is completely validating. It's a way to take power back from maybe where they've felt powerless in their past. It can actually be very, very good mentally as well.

The only struggle with that is the reality is we don't always get feedback from law enforcement of how our case is? We hand in a report to law enforcement, but it might not always be clear whether that case went to trial, whether that person was convicted.

We don't always get the information, and so I have to make sure the volunteer's okay with that, that we're not always going to know every win. Are you going to be able to stay motivated on cases you don't know the answer to? There's a lot of areas to poke around in there.

Theresa Nair:  That is interesting. There's that sense of empowerment, right?

Erin Maloney:  Yes, yes.

Theresa Nair:  When they're able to do something, but I'm sure it's a little frustrating when you just never know what happens?

Erin Maloney:  Yes. Exactly, exactly. But that's not our role. We don't want fame, we don't want to be associated with putting somebody away. We are really truly just totally behind the scenes trying to help. We have the computer skills to find a lot of people and we try to hand that over to law enforcement, and so we don't always get the answers.

Theresa Nair:  Do you think there's other areas of volunteer work, or perhaps other professions in general that would benefit from providing these types of mental health services to volunteers or to employees?

Erin Maloney:  Yes. It's funny you say that. We have some volunteers who are either currently or ex-military, or current or ex law enforcement. They have said many times that if they had somebody at their office to talk to, it could have made a major difference for them with some of the things that they endured or witnessed.

I know there's a lot of EAP programs for companies, but I think there is something at me being here every day for them that makes a very big difference. They just know. I get to know them very well. It's a stable, long-lasting relationship, and so they don't have to re-explain themselves to somebody new. I'm part of the team itself and employed there, so it makes a big difference I think in that consistency that they know I'm here and they could come to me at any time.

Theresa Nair:  It seems it might also be beneficial that you have a regular scheduled monthly meeting at least with everybody.

Erin Maloney:  Yes.

Theresa Nair:  Because I think sometimes in workplace mental health services, people are afraid to use them because they're afraid of being stigmatized even if somebody sees them going to talk to the person, or if the boss finds out that they're talking to the person. Do you think it's helpful just going ahead and scheduling appointments with everybody?

Erin Maloney:  Yeah, I really do. It's so funny you say that. Yeah, because I could definitely tell there's a resistance. Our team, for the most part, it is a lot of people who happen to be in cyber security type industry. When you're in that industry, you actually tend to be, not to stereotype an entire group, but sometimes you tend to be introverted and private.

Therefore, I do think this forces people a little bit out of their comfort zone and then they do realize, "Oh, this isn't so bad." Because I'm not deep diving way into their past, Freudian style. It is non-confrontational. I go at their pace and whatever they choose to talk about. Obviously, we talk about case work, but anything else they might need to address.

It gives them a huge shift if they already had a fear or resistance to therapy where it's not so bad for them after a while, once they get to know me better. Yeah, I agree. I think it's very good that it's almost forced upon them and I send out reminders and I reach out.

If they avoid me after a certain amount of time, then we have to do the whole, "Are you trying to pause? Is there something you need?" So, it's nice, but that's rare that I don't hear from somebody

Theresa Nair:  Then it's, "Well, I'm talking to her anyway. I may as well have a real conversation, right?"

Erin Maloney:  Exactly. The other thing to this is that again you mentioned, you asked about different fields. Well, law enforcement or some other heavy content type professions, they can't turn to their family or their loved ones and just spill what happened in their day, similar to this type of work. They're not going to turn and say, "Guess what this case is about?" You can't. You want to protect your own loved ones and family and friends.

A lot of our volunteers are anonymous, so this gives them a direct place to process what they need to process without feeling they're burdening anybody. Without feeling like they're going to hurt or harm anybody. It's just a safe space for them dedicated to them, and I feel like it gives them that open door.

Theresa Nair:  Then they can talk about that case work that they maybe couldn't discuss with other people.

Erin Maloney:  Exactly, exactly.

Theresa Nair:  I think that's a great model. I wish more places would do that.

Erin Maloney:  I do too. I do too. It's very nice, and I do feel like with law enforcement in particular, I think of that field and just the things that come home from, or anybody on the front lines really. After a really rough day of what you might witness or see or hear, and then you have to go home with that.

That's where I feel for people when they don't have any place to just unload that on, and making the time. That's the other thing you had mentioned. We all have a hard time making the time, and at least with this, it's mandatory so it's part of your volunteer. We ask people to volunteer if they're volunteering with us for about 10 hours a month if possible, but that includes a lot.

We have a team meeting, which is once a month. We have myself, would be an hour so that's already detracting right off their volunteer hours for us, so it helps that it's just built right in for them.

Theresa Nair:  Right, and then they don't have to take the initiative to seek out speaking to somebody. It's just a part of it.

Erin Maloney:  Exactly, exactly.

Theresa Nair:  Well, as someone who specializes in cognitive behavior techniques to support the mental health of those engaged in volunteer work, do you have any parting words of advice or anything else you'd like to share with our listeners?

Erin Maloney:  Sure. I mention this to volunteers all the time, and I would like for your listeners to know. I think balancing life is the key. You really have to balance your life, and volunteering is actually a very worthy and beneficial cause to you. This really helps fuel your soul. But if the plate's full and you just need to get rid of something, then that's generally, unfortunately some self-care things or things we do for ourselves might be some of the first things to go.

So, I just always say, "Stay balanced." But if you are realizing you can't manage everything, you can't problem solve, you're losing your focus, you don't want to burn out. Really, I always say we cannot, you do not want to burn out. Before you start, that's where, going back to the cognitive behavioral I therapy, I listen for the negative.

If I start hearing negative comments and negative thoughts that are just kind of untrue, I really try to help reframe. But if it's not possible, then we have to look at what they might have to cut out of their lives? What they might have to do to manage things? Balancing life, self-care is very important, but you need to know when you need to step back and maybe make some changes.

Theresa Nair:  That's great advice. Well, thank you so much for making the time to speak with us and participating in our interview series.

Erin Maloney:  Thank you. Thank you for having me. I just want to make sure I tell you guys that you can always go to our website, innocentlivesfoundation.com. There are great resources and tools on there. If anybody ever had to make a report of anything they were concerned with, again, it could be a parent, a caregiver, a teacher.

If somebody's concerned about maybe what a child's posting or who a child's speaking with or they're unsure of things that are online, you can always submit a report right there and we'll reach out and see what we can help investigate for you. Please use us as a resource as needed. Again, we have great blogs and articles on there and things that you might find very helpful.

Theresa Nair:  That's great, and we will also link to that website underneath our interview so that people can find it easily.

Erin Maloney:  Wonderful. That sounds great.

Theresa Nair:  Okay. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Erin Maloney:  Of course. Thanks for having me.

Please note: The views expressed by the interviewee are for educational and informational purposes only, are not meant to diagnose or treat any condition, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Seattle Anxiety Specialists, PLLC.

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Editor: Jennifer (Ghahari) Smith, Ph.D.

Attorney Wendy Patrick on Predators & Manipulation

An Interview with Attorney Wendy Patrick, J.D., Ph.D.

Dr. Wendy Patrick is a deputy district attorney, author, media commentator, and veteran prosecutor. In addition to her law degree, Wendy Patrick has earned a doctorate in Theology. An accomplished trial attorney, Dr. Patrick’s research focuses on a variety of topics related to interpersonal violence and sexual assault.

Amelia Worley:  Hi. Thanks for joining us today for this installment at the Seattle Psychiatrist Interview Series. I'm Amelia Worley, a research intern at Seattle Anxiety Specialists. I'd like to welcome Dr. Wendy Patrick. Dr. Patrick is a deputy district attorney, author, media commentator, and veteran prosecutor. She's completed over 165 trials, including cases of domestic violence, hate crimes, stalking, human trafficking, and first degree murder. She has also been involved with the San Diego Domestic Violence Council, the San Diego Child Protection Team, and the Sexual Assault Response Team. Dr. Patrick researches, advises, and publishes on a variety of topics related to interpersonal violence, sexual assault, and working with victims, including her book, “Red Flags: How to Spot Frenemies, Underminers, and Ruthless People.” Before we get started, Dr. Patrick, can you please let us know a little more about yourself and what you made you interested in dealing with dangerous people, sexual assault, and domestic violence?

Wendy Patrick:  I've been a prosecutor for my entire career, I would say since before you've been born, but it lends a little bit of credibility to what I'm talking about. For whatever reason, during the 25 years plus I've been a prosecutor, I've dealt with a steady stream of dangerous people. One of the things that really struck me, Amelia, about this is the sometimes very worldly, intelligent, savvy victims, people you wouldn't expect to be victims because they don't strike you as particularly vulnerable in any arena, yet there they were. I went back to school to earn a Master in Divinity and then a PhD mid-career. It was my mid-career crisis if that's a term, and really became in love with research, as I suppose I was. That's what led me to want to go on and further my education because there's an enormous amount of research behind why, why people fall for dangerous people, how dangerous people corner victims, how they manipulate even very street smart savvy professionals. It is with that combination of the anecdotal, the empirical, and I would say the experiential, given the work that I've done for 25 years, that really brought me to a lot of the information that I cover in that book.

Amelia Worley:  Yeah. That's great. To begin, can you describe the acronym “FLAGs” that you created to separate the dangerous from the desirable?

Wendy Patrick:  Well, my first book was the revised version of the New York Times bestseller “Reading People,” which I coauthored with a famous jury consultant. That talked about the seven colors of what somebody looks like, how they behave. Red Flags is a deeper dive. Flag stands for focus, lifestyle, associations, and goals. Let me explain each one of those so your listeners can understand a little bit about why this gives you more of an idea of who is this person behind the persona.

Focus is the F, and the reason I wanted to use that for flag, it also talks about focus being attention reveals intention. For example, I think on the back cover of the book, the publishing company has the red flags on a first date, your body, your brain, or the ball game. What is somebody focused on when they're with you? Well, that tells them what they're interested in. If they're not interested in you, why are they spending time with you. Oftentimes in the child predator world it's because they're interested in the child. I cannot tell you how many trials I've had where you've had spouses and girlfriends and boyfriends that had no idea that honestly believed they were the prize. They were the ones that the perpetrator was after, but if they looked back at the focus, that was never really it.

Lifestyle is what you might imagine. I sometimes call this red flags after five. If you want to know what somebody is like, you have to know more about what they do during the work day. You may see them all day at work, nine to five, and have no idea who they really are unless you know what they do when they're off the clock. I say, lifestyle is personality revealed. What are their hobbies? What are their interests? Where do they go if they have a free day.

Now, Associations stands for who do we spend our time with? When I was growing up my parents used to say, show me your friends and I'll show you your future. My law students now tell me that, I suppose, the updated version of that is show me your friends and I'll show you who you are. Either way, it proves the point, birds of a feather. What sort of company do we keep? Are we guilty by association? I mean, who do we choose to spend our time with if we have a choice? What organizations do we belong to? What philanthropic activities capture our attention.

Then Goals is really a profile in priorities. If I knew, for example, Amelia, what you prayed for at night or what you wished for when you toss a coin into a wishing well, you're too young, but we used to do that back in the day, I would know a lot about you. Knowing what somebody's goals are tells you a lot about them as a person. All four of these FLAG areas taken in combination gives you a much deeper picture of what a person is really like.

Amelia Worley:  Yeah. What are some recognizable signs of people who have ulterior and self-serving motives then?

Wendy Patrick:  Well, one of the things you really have to look at goes back to that focus component. It would be like, I'm a Rotarian, so I'll use the rotary example. Lots of people join service organizations, but why are they there? Are they there to put it on a resume? Are they there because they genuinely want to help serve the homeless? When you're looking at somebody's motivation, some of the signs have to do with where they focus their attention and on what aspect of belonging, I'm just using that as an example, are they interested in when they go to a social hour or a networking event? If you look at their focus, if you look at the fact that they're not necessarily interested in building business, but gathering business cards to maybe put on a mailing list. So, it's really paying attention to what somebody does.

We used to say a picture is worth a thousand words. Actions speak louder than words. That is the takeaway from being able to tell what a person is really like. A dangerous person, their actions speak for themselves. They're not philanthropic actions. They're only asking questions designed to elicit the kind of information that might give them an idea of an area of vulnerability. I gave the example of the focus and some of the women, in particular, that were married to child predators or married to pedophiles. They would often find that looking back, right, that's always sadly the way that many people look at red flags, looking back, there were tons of signs that they really only wanted, they were almost only a conduit, a way in which the predator could gain access to the person they were really interested in. Some predators use people to gain access to resources, time, money, favors, all the kinds of things in a workplace setting, for example, that shows they're not really interested in a coworker, but in what that coworker can do for them. It's that end game that sometimes we have to really keep an eye on.

Amelia Worley:  Yeah. In your book, “Red Flags: How to Spot Frenemies, Underminers, and Ruthless People,” you talk about how dangerous people use selective attention to manipulate their victims. How and why does this work?

Wendy Patrick:  Well, it works because to somebody that's not used to receiving attention, that can be the most intoxicating experience of their life. I'll give the example of somebody that isn't drop dead gorgeous, somebody that's perhaps not attractive is not used to getting attention really from anybody. It's a terrible situation. As a Christian, my heart goes out to those people. They're the most beautiful people sometimes that I will ever meet, but their experience is not getting double takes on the street by men in whom they might potentially be interested in. If a manipulator, and we see this a lot in the human trafficking arena, if a manipulator, a trafficker, somebody that has ulterior motives, swoops in and gives them the kind of attention they've only dreamed about receiving, that is uniquely attractive to somebody that's not used to receiving that type of attention. Of course, a predator, a manipulator, somebody that's interested and has ulterior motives, of course they're going to use that approach.

Now they have to be careful because sometimes people that are not the most attractive people in the room might be the smartest, so they have to be very subtle about the way in which they're approaching these people so they don't raise the antenna. Let me tell you what the research shows. This is going to surprise some of our listeners and viewers. Sometimes, even when you have somebody that suspects somebody has ulterior motives, even they can't help being flattered by the attention. How do you like that? It's almost like an emotional cognitive override. Emotionally it feels so good that even though cognitively you suspect ulterior motives, you still respond favorably to the flattery. That is the bread and butter of people, dangerous people that have ulterior motives is knowing that people are susceptible to that kind of attention.

Amelia Worley:  That's really interesting. What role does physical appearance play in misjudgment and wrong perceptions? I know you've talked about this a little bit, but additionally, how does this relate to the halo effect?

Wendy Patrick:  Well, the halo effect stands for, and all of our psychiatrists and psychologist guests will appreciate this, as they know, it talks about this phenomenon that if somebody looks good, sounds good, is pretty, is attractive, we tend to ascribe to them all of these positive qualities they don't have. Some of the research, there's a lot of research behind the halo effect, maybe some people that work with you have even authored some of the studies, but it has to do with us saying things like, “Oh, I bet she's a really good mother. I'll bet he can be trusted,” only because they're good looking. There's many studies that show that attractive criminals, which is of course my line of work, are treated more leniently. They sometimes get more favorable plea bargains. Juries give them the benefit of the doubt.

I've tried about 160 cases. That's a lot of cases if you're a lawyer. In that time period, I've had the opportunity to speak to almost all of my jurors that have waited around after the fact and found that they often really do give my pretty defendants a break. It's one thing to say, this woman is charged with being a child molester and sleeping with her students at school and all the rest of these nasty things, it's quite another to look over and see those jurors smiling, looking at the pretty lady in the polka dot and pearls sitting at the defendant's table. That sometimes translates into a very lenient verdict or a non verdict in the form of a hung jury. It is very difficult to overcome the halo effect because, again, it's something that is emotional, not necessarily cognitive.

I'll tell you one exception of that. There's been some research that has shown that if a jury finds that a pretty or a handsome defendant used their looks to facilitate a crime, they don't like that because that's almost a counterintuitive backdoor way of using what they might otherwise have been susceptible to as the triers of fact in the way that they committed the crime.

Amelia Worley:  That's fascinating, actually.

Wendy Patrick:  It is.

Amelia Worley:  Also in your book, you talked about helping behavior. How can this create a power imbalance and eventually lead to a dangerous situation?

Wendy Patrick:  Well, helping behavior creates dependence. Many of the cases that I've tried have involved predators, child molesters, sexual assaulters. They gain access into the victim's life. They weaseled their way in by being helpful. They're the handyman. They can do anything. They can fix the internet. They can fix the car. If they engage in enough helping behavior, a victim becomes dependent. There have been some cases in which that's been illustrated, sadly, in grand fashion where you have a neighbor that's interested, for example, in a next door neighbor's child. He becomes indispensable to the next door neighbor. I mean, he's over there fixing her car, fixing anything that goes wrong in the house, sometimes even beginning to show up unannounced. It's a boundary probing kind of insidious progression, creating vulnerability.

Sometimes when he shows up unannounced, the neighbor that is so used to this man fixing everything, doesn't even stop him because she doesn't want to lose access to that free labor. Nothing's free. It's only a matter of time before this man will ask to babysit a child. Now, is it true that there are some really kind people that are helpers? Absolutely. That's why there are four flag areas and not just one. You just want to make sure that if something seems too good to be true that sometimes it is. Make sure you go through all the areas of interest, that some people are as good as they look, but not everyone. I'll leave it at that.

Amelia Worley:  Yeah. Once you realize someone in your life is manipulative or deceptive, it can be anxiety-inducing or depressing. What steps should you take when you realize someone like this is in your life? What if it's someone you love?

Wendy Patrick:  Ah, depression and anxiety are something that everybody struggles with. Those are conditions that transcend any kind of boundary, socioeconomic. I mean, no matter who you are, where you live, what you do, you're vulnerable. Part of the reason you're vulnerable is exactly what you just mentioned. Sometimes you find out the hard way that it's somebody very close to you that's manipulative. One of the ways in which you deal with this is exactly what you do in your line of work. You got to talk to somebody about it. People think, oh, I can handle this on my own. They can't. However, it's often very empowering to speak with those who've also gone through the same kind of circumstance. In my line of work, we call those survivors. Human trafficking victims are often helped along towards the path to survivorhood by other survivors who have been through the exact same thing.

So too, those who've had the wool pulled over their eyes, those that have been manipulated, who have been fooled by somebody they thought really loved them, are sometimes very much helped by others who have been there. Sometimes reviewing the red flags will empower them not to fall forward again. Part of what I often teach in connection with these programs I give, because I do this as a speaking series, I've done it all over the world, and I'm going to give you some takeaways along the lines of how can you prevent yourself from being in a position that you're asking a question, what do you do once you recognize you're in that scenario. Maximize first impressions. In other words, don't trade in your reading glasses for rose colored glasses. You're wearing reading glasses when you first meet somebody or first go on a date. Perceive as much as you can when you are most objective.

Be wary of under exposure. If there's an area of somebody's life that they don't share with you like that unaccounted for hour or two after work, you want to know where they are. Why are they off the grid during certain times of the day or night? Most people are very transparent. Sometimes we make the joke TMI, as my students say, too much information, that's preferable to too little information because secrets breed suspicion. Time lapse photography is the next one. You notice I'm on a photography theme, which of course was a thing when I was growing up. Observe somebody's behavior over time. You can't tell what somebody's like if you just have a snapshot of their day. Maybe a continual snapshot, like you work with them. You only know what they're like when they're on the clock. You have to know what they're like in different settings and across time to be able to get a good read on them.

That would also be, I suppose, using a wider angle lens. You're looking at behavior in different settings, in different contexts. Solicit multiple exposures. Introduce people to your friends and family. You may trade in your reading glasses for rose colored, but I guarantee you, your family and friends will not. Anybody who has been second guessed by an objective sounding board, i.e., parents, spouse, family, good friends, colleagues, coworkers, they're going to tell it like it is because they care about you. We live in a day and age of vision enhancement. You can go online and look at social media. Sometimes you look at other dating sites if that's the way you met somebody and see how they describe themselves on other dating sites. Shocker, news flash, yes, people use multiple dating sites and don't go off of those sites just because they start dating you.

There's a lot of information available to make sure that you are not the one that ends up in that scenario where you are involved and are just now recognizing that you're involved with the wrong person. Now, let me temper all of that with what we'll call, I don't know if we really want to put a word on it, but the tendency we have to believe. It's easier to believe. It's cognitively more challenging and difficult to doubt. When we first meet somebody, we're disinclined to go online and look up and fact check everything. Nobody has the time for that, and we don't want to do it because we're sometimes enamored with a new love interest. Those are some of the reasons that even very smart people sometimes fall for the wrong individuals.

Amelia Worley:  Yeah. That's really helpful. Thank you. Lastly, do you have any advice or anything you want to say to someone regarding dangerous or deceptive people?

Wendy Patrick:  I think I just said it. I think that laundry list of ways that you would make sure you don't allow somebody to get too close to you until you've gone through all of those steps is probably the best way to prevent yourself from being in that scenario to begin with. The reason my book has all those chapters, it talks about all the different ways that we are captivated by somebody when we don't really know who they are. That's one of the reasons that there are just so many ways, counter intuition, when the optics don't match the topics, make sure you use all of your senses all of the time when you're getting to know somebody. That is the single best way to make sure you are not fooled.

The last chapter in my book, as you know, is green lights because I don't want anybody to think that my years as a prosecutor made me a skeptic. Some people are as good as they look. Go figure. I'm going to give a big amen to that, because that sometimes is what we find out when we get to know somebody better is it's authentic, it's genuine, and that creates a healthy, happy relationship.

Amelia Worley:  Well, that's great. Thank you so much, Dr. Patrick. It was wonderful having you on our interview series today.

Wendy Patrick:  Thank you for having me.

Please note: The views expressed by the interviewee are for educational and informational purposes only, are not meant to diagnose or treat any condition, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Seattle Anxiety Specialists, PLLC.

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Editor: Jennifer (Ghahari) Smith, Ph.D.