July 21, 2023

Social Psychologist Sharon Goto on the Mental Health of Asian Americans

July 21, 2023

An Interview with Social Psychologist Sharon Goto

Sharon Goto, Ph.D. is a Professor of Psychological Science and Asian American Studies at Pomona College. She specializes in Asian American psychology, cross-cultural psychology and issues of intergroup relations.

Kaylin Ong: Thank you today for joining us for this installment of the Seattle Psychiatrist Interview series. I'm Kaylin Ong, an undergraduate student at Pomona College, and a research intern at Seattle Anxiety Specialists. We are a Seattle-based psychiatry, psychology and psychotherapy practice specializing in anxiety disorders.

I'd like to welcome with us Dr. Sharon Goto, Professor of Psychological Science and Asian-American Studies at Pomona College. Dr. Goto has a PhD in social psychology with minors in industrial and organizational psychology and quantitative psychology, and has also published several papers within the field of Asian American and cross-cultural psychology.

So before we get started, can you please let us know a little bit more about yourself and what made you interested in studying Asian-American psychology?

Sharon Goto: Thanks, Kaylin. So happy to be here. I’ve taught at Pomona College in Asian American psychology and Asian American studies and psychological science department for over 25 years. Currently, I am chairing the Department of Asian American Studies, and I have been teaching a class called Asian American Psychology. That is one of my favorite classes to teach along with some other classes. It's been really fun to see how the field has changed across the years. I also do research and my research is generally trying to understand how bicultural individuals navigate different cultural worlds, different racial worlds, and trying to understand the psychological processes related to that. And in addition to that, I guess, let's see, my pronouns are she/her, and I have a lovely family, my husband and two daughters who are currently home right now back from college and my two adorable stray cats. So happy to be here.

Kaylin Ong: Yeah, thank you so much. So your research explores the prominent role that culture plays in self-construal. Can you explain what this means and talk about some ways you studied this in the lab setting?

Sharon Goto: Yeah, so self-construal is a way that people kind of define or think about themselves. So it's a series of different theories about that and there's been a lot of empirical work on it. And it's slightly different from the way that Freud, for example, would learn about them, the self and just sort of through introspective techniques, it's more empirically driven. So there are some theories that talk about the difference between the ought self, the ideal self, the actual self. There are some distinctions between the public self, the private self. What I'm really interested in is the differences in the distinction between the interdependent self and the independent self. In some ways that I studied or has been studied and I study as well is we look at, for example, just simple self-report, for example.

So, you could ask a person to measure the level of interdependent self-construal. How important is it to include other people when you're trying to make a decision for independent self-construal? It's really important for me to make decisions on my own, agree, disagree, how much agree to that. So that would be different ways to tap those using self-report measures.

And the reason why it's such a big deal to look at interdependent independent self-construal when you're looking at cross-cultural research is because it actually predicts a lot of variance in behavior and attitude. So it really turns out to be super important when you're looking internationally, globally as well as within a particular culture. And there are also more experimental ways to understand self-construal, like using electrophysiological measures and trying to understand the way the brain is processing information differently based on their cultural orientation of interdependent versus independent self-construal. So it's not alone. There are many people who have come before me. It's really, I think, a super interesting construct that has really stood the test of time.

Kaylin Ong: Yeah, that sounds really interesting. I think cross-cultural psychology is such an interesting field and has so much depth. So yeah, thank you so much for sharing. So on that, cross-cultural research often uses the phrase collectivist versus individualist to talk about, for example, cultural differences. Can you explain what these two terms mean and also give some examples of how this might manifest itself in human behaviors and attitudes?

Sharon Goto: Yeah, so if you're not familiar with the terms independent and independent self-construal, you might be familiar with the terms collectivism and individualism. So that's probably a more well known, maybe more interdisciplinary approach. It was probably one of the entrees into psychology about how culture was first studied. And it does look at the amount of importance the group carries over the individual. So collectivism is more cultural level and individualism is more cultural level or aggregates of people level constructs. So groups of people can be more collectivist in nature, more group oriented or more individualistic in nature or more self-oriented or individually driven. And it turns out some important things are, for example, the way that rewards are distributed. It's very interesting. It varies very much by collectivists versus individual orientation, for example, in terms of how people think reward distribution is fair or not.

So, for example, collectivists might be very happy if rewards are distributed equally within your group. So, everyone gets $5 and that feels good. Versus individualists might tend to be more what's called equity based. So, they want to earn their money, so they're really okay if some people that do more work get $10 and other people that don't do the work get $0. So, it's a different way of distributing and a different way of really defining what is fair. And it's really interesting that the very notion of what is fair is actually culturally driven and understood by collectivism versus individualism, for example.

Kaylin Ong: Thank you. I had a quick question. So collectivist versus individualist. I think a lot of the times I've associated, for example, collectivism with East Asian cultures or just eastern cultures in general, and then Western cultures are a little bit more individualist oriented. Would that be correct or accurate to say?

Sharon Goto: Yeah, so there have been a lot of studies that have done, starting with Hofstede’s original studies, looking at the amount of collectivism versus the amount of individualism in different nations. And you're exactly right. So East Asian cultures tend to be more collectivists and less individualistic. And Western European, North American cultures tend to be more individualistic and actually more individualistic than basically the entire world. So very much outliers. And I do want to say that although it's important to understand the idea of individualism and collectivism at the aggregate level, there's analogous to interdependent and independent self-construal at the individual level. So collectivism tends to be comprised of people that have high interdependent self-construal individualism tends to be comprised of people that have high independent self-construal. But it's also really important that you have that distinction because just because you're in North America doesn't mean that you're necessarily individualistic. You could have very strong interdependent self-construal tendencies as well. Does that make sense? So it really allows for that's not just so essentialized that you really do have a broad representation.

Kaylin Ong: Oh, thanks for the clarification. Okay, next question. So, one of your most recent publications focuses on cultural priming effects on the N400. Can you explain for our listeners what the N400 is and why it's been an essential component of your research?

Sharon Goto: Yeah, so the N400 is like a time locked event related potential. So basically what you do is you attach these fancy electrophysiological equipment to the scalp, which people have probably seen. And based on surface level activity, you have some insight in terms of the brain processing, the neural processing that's going on. So basically, what we do is show you stimuli and about 400 milliseconds afterwards, you are getting some gauge of semantic processing, which is the amount of sense making a person is doing.

So, for example, if I were to tell you ‘The boy gave his dog a bone.’ Okay, that makes good sense. Versus, ‘the boy gave his dog a bugle.’ That's a little bit more confusing, and there's probably a little bit more processing that's going on to make sense of that. So it turns out that the semantic processing of information can vary by culture, and it's a more dynamic way to understand cultural differences, particularly for example of bicultural people who might move in and out of different cultural frames. It's also very sensitive, and that's why we have tended to use it in our lab.

Kaylin Ong: Right. That's very, very interesting. So in your lab, do you collaborate with the neuroscience department or neuroscience students, for example?

Sharon Goto: Yes, absolutely. So our lab is called the Cultural Race and Brain Lab, and I'm one of the professors and also Professor Richard Lewis who has an appointment in neuroscience. And our students are a combination of people that are in Asian American studies and psychological science and in neuroscience, all interested in culture and the brain.

Kaylin Ong: Oh, great, thank you. So, you've briefly studied the role of discrimination on the mental health of students of color, and as a professor with a background in organizational psychology, how do you see your findings as being relevant today?

Sharon Goto: Yeah, that was an interesting sort of study that I had done with a student actually as a senior thesis at Pomona College. Pomona College students are amazing. So it's been known that discrimination is a stressor and it leads to negative mental health outcomes. And what we wanted to do is we wanted to look at the mechanism for that. So we were wondering if one of the mechanisms of being in a stressful organizational setting, so either educational or workplace setting, if that would lead to more psychological distress. And if the mechanism or the reason why that might be the case would be what's called depletion of self-control.

So, the idea is self-control. There is a limited amount of self-control we have. It takes energy to maintain our self psychologically and physiologically. And whenever there's a stressor, it kind of depletes it a little bit, and one of those stressors could be consistently being in a hostile environment or an environment where you have to be wary. And what we showed empirically is that, yes, for students of color being in a psychologically stressful environment, for example, a classroom setting in a predominantly White institution can lead to psychological distress. And the mechanism for that is depletion of self-control.

So, self-control is really interesting because you could also learn to build it up a muscle, you could exercise it, but at a particular time you're using a lot of energy, if that makes sense and that's why you have the depletion.

Kaylin Ong: That makes a lot of sense.

Sharon Goto: So yeah, I think that's particularly relevant now with the racial tensions and it's definitely whether you're in education in the classroom or in the workplace or whoever it might be, if you're in a setting where you're thinking about these issues, you're worried about issues related to discrimination, then it's probably taking a little bit of a mental toll and cumulatively it could have a negative effect on your psychological distress.

Kaylin Ong: And the next question I think is a little bit related to that. So why is cultural diversity important in the workplace setting? And have you done any sort of research on this topic as well?

Sharon Goto: Yeah, so that's one of the reasons that I really got into this area, just looking at the demographics, I understand that workforce diversity, just diversity in our society in general is only going to increase. And to pretend it's not is just probably not the most productive way to go. So, counter to what some of the recent Supreme Court decisions have been that have made decisions against the role of affirmative action, there's a really long-standing tradition of empirical tradition: understanding that diverse work groups do better in many ways. They come up with more creative solutions. If you have enough time to work together, people are very satisfied with their interaction within a diverse setting. There's really fantastic outcomes that come to play. So it's really, really super important.

And although I haven't done research looking at, for example, diversity and group performance for example, I do indirectly look at it because I'm looking at how bicultural individuals might interact or be in a workplace with culturally different or racially different others. And I'm trying to work from a model where it's not necessarily an assimilationist model. So, where you have to become completely like those people in the workplace that you're seeing, shed your language, shed your cultural values and shed your cultural behaviors. But rather what are ways that those cultural differences benefit the workplace and what are ways that being different from others can be enhancing and not self depleting? So that's what I do.

Kaylin Ong: I think especially as a student, and obviously Pomona College is a very liberal institution and it's very, very diverse and I feel very grateful to be surrounded by just such a diverse crowd and so many diverse students of color. But yeah, I think just because of the affirmative action and just the recent events, I mean, I guess surrounding that and the dialogue, I feel like it's particularly relevant today for students.

Sharon Goto: Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, there really is a trickle-down effect in terms of the way people think about each other and what their goals are. And so I'm really hoping that this time is a time where people just really keep the conversations and communications going.

Kaylin Ong: So it's clear that the COVID-19 pandemic has had profound impacts on mental health across the globe and research states that Asian Americans in particular have been affected by the pandemic more than other racial groups. And so I wanted to ask you, in what ways have they been affected more and how would you potentially explain this finding?

Sharon Goto: Yeah, so I am a little bit less interested in the comparative experiences of the COVID pandemic across different groups, but I have seen a lot of research that was looking at the effects of the pandemic on Asian Americans in particular. And you really do see faring worse during and after the pandemic. So it's really due to health related stressors, economic related stressors, social stressors, like racial discrimination and the pandemic, that physiological, everything is a stressor that has affected, in particular, some people within the Asian American community more than others. So I think those are just things that need to be looked at more carefully.

Kaylin Ong: I think the social determinants of health in particular are very, very interesting and sometimes they get overlooked. And so I also wanted to ask a follow-up question. Do you consider, for example, historical trauma at all and in your research, or I guess what is your take on that in implementing a broader scope of history and the historical traumas or generational traumas that Asian Americans have faced?

Sharon Goto: Yeah, I think that's something that is really so important. It's actually one of the reasons why I got into this area in the first place. I was really taken by my Asian American psych class as an undergrad that Stanley Sue taught and really wondering within my own personal family, what would be the negative impacts of internment, which my parents had both faced in terms of long-term consequences.

I haven't looked at it directly as a research question, but some people have Donna Nagata and University of Michigan, and I think empirically you're seeing it more and more in research. I would love to adopt some frameworks and some theories about it. What's really interesting is we just finished a study looking at older adults and help seeking within the Asian American community. So it's a community based sample. We're wondering about how the COVID related incidents, both due to the virus and also due to increased racial discrimination and violence really has affected older adults, and in turn, whether or not and how they help seek or not.

What was really interesting is yes, so there was some reluctance, some stigma as you might imagine, but also people would come up to us after and they would say things like, "Our community," or, "I've been through so much before that this..." They wouldn't say is nothing, but, "I know I can make it through this." So it was really personal testimony and resiliency that I wish that... Maybe it will be our next study. I thought it was so very interesting. It wasn't outside the kind of questions we're asking, but you could really see it as the strength of the community.

Kaylin Ong: No, I think that's a very, very interesting topic because I'm also Asian American and my grandparents, they lived through the Great Depression, they're very old now. But they were saying very similar things where it's like they've been through a lot and they're very, very resilient and it's just unlike anything our generation has experienced. And so that difference in generational knowledge and generational experience and also help seeking behavior and health seeking behavior is very, very interesting to me just because I feel like there is a fine line between older individuals who are reluctant to seek help even when they may need it. And so it's just that line between they're very resilient, but at the same time, I feel like more outreach maybe needs to be done, especially because the pandemic has affected older populations, especially my grandparents and my great aunts and uncles who are still around. So yeah, it's very personal, but very interesting.

Sharon Goto: Yeah, yeah, very personal, very interesting and really super important. So there's more people that do this kind of work. We always need more people to do this kind of work.

Kaylin Ong: Yeah, it's very, very interesting to me. So my next follow up question, it's pretty general. What can be done to potentially address the declining mental health of Asian Americans throughout the pandemic?

Sharon Goto: I mean, think it's about making sure that people have the resources that they need. One thing that we did find is that the older Asian Americans were likely to seek help from friends and family, surprisingly equally likely from law enforcement, just in case there were race-based situations, but much less so statistically, significantly less so for mental health resources. So trying to get the mental health resource piece together, it's been long standing in the community based on stigmatization and access and that sort of thing, but particularly stronger now. And what's interesting in our data, it suggests that when people are thinking about seeking help, the collectivism piece comes back. So thinking about how I am seeking help now from friends and family will help share my experiences so they will know what happens.

So the old adults in my sample, they were really thinking about younger people too, setting a good example. They're wondering if other people are going to be available and willing to listen. They're wondering about whether the police are going to be available, if they ask, reach out. They're also asking questions about the social norm around help seeking. That was also really big. So really looking differently than other samples that are less probably interdependent self-construal would probably look at our sample, which you would guess was very normatively driven, very collectively driven. So I think what can be done would be to do things like attack the problem of stigmatization, show role models of people who have sought help from mental health and have done better.

I remember in graduate school, for me, mental health help seeking was not something, not a tradition in my family that we really talked about. I remember there was a graduate student that was a little bit older than me that I really looked up to, was profoundly smart, had their act together so much, and then she would talk about how she would see her therapist, and I thought, "Ah, maybe that's the ticket."

So role modeling, more communication, more availability, more help to access the resources if they want to seek mental health. That would be a big step: resources. That would be a big step I think of in terms of, right, you could do now, right?

Kaylin Ong: Yeah, I think the Asian American community especially, there is a mental health stigma and asking for help and reaching out for help. It's definitely a barrier. And it comes from a lot of personal experience, and I'm sure you've had very similar experiences as well. And yeah, I think it's cool that it's this collective experience that we have and it's something that we can overcome together through collective help and just an increase in resources, like you said.

Sharon Goto: Yeah, absolutely. You could probably link it to one of the, again, once again, that some of the collectivist values of not wanting to be a burden on other people. If you think about a really tight group, then you know, want to try to hold your own, other people don't have to worry about you. And so, it is a little bit driven by that.

Kaylin Ong: And then moving on to our next question. So before the pandemic, what were the biggest mental health challenges typically faced by Asian Americans?

Sharon Goto: Before the pandemic, I think you would hear about differences or difficulties in acculturation or adjustment, immigration adjustment or acculturation adjustment, discrimination, racial discrimination, and also stereotyping. So having to live with one way or the other, the model minority stereotype is a big stressor on the community. So, I think those were things that would appear in the literature before the pandemic.

Kaylin Ong: Yeah. Could you elaborate a little bit more on the model minority myth for listeners who haven't really heard of that term?

Sharon Goto: Yeah. So, the model minority myth stereotype is the idea that Asian Americans, and it was originally with East Asian Americans, but also now extended to South Asian, Southeast Asian. It just is a really strong stereotype, very persistent. They are the model. They don't need anything. There's something about their culture that's special. They work hard, they don't complain. They do their work, they don't need any extra resources, they don't need any help. They figure it out themselves and they do a good job.

So on the surface, the model minority myth sounds really fantastic. "Oh, yes, I am a part of a model group." But there’s really a little bit more difficult of a read in it. So if you dig down a little bit deeper and you see when the stereotypes started to occur, I think it's not an accident. And many others think it's not an accident that it started to be more popular during the civil rights movement. So when other groups were really asking for more justice for them, so African Americans and Chicanx populations were really asking for more justice for their own situation, then, then popular media, politicians, et cetera, were saying things like, "Well, we don't need to change our structure. Our institutions look at the Asian Americans. They're doing really well." And that's really the beginning.

So, it really did then, and it does now, it really creates a wedge with using Asian Americans as a wedge group to divide people of color. Does that make sense? So, to deny that racism exists in our institutions.

Kaylin Ong: Right. And I think that goes a little bit back to what we were talking about with affirmative action. I think there's a very interesting stratification between different minority groups now, especially Asian Americans sort of being grouped with White Americans as opposed to all other minority groups in higher education. And I think that has so many implications right now. And so it's interesting to see how things come back and things are very interconnected right now.

Sharon Goto: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. So yeah, with affirmative action stuff now in educational settings, you have to, and it's really been a rough place for Asian Americans to continue to build their coalition among Asian Americans, because yeah, the umbrella of Asian Americans are very diverse, different ethnicities, different languages, different experiences within educational settings. And so I think particularly if you think about in workplace settings, extending that to workplace settings, and all of a sudden it's all gone in terms of the model minority and everybody and needs a little affirmative action. I know that I benefited very much from some mentorship that was based on race. Yeah.

Kaylin Ong: Very interesting issues.

Sharon Goto: Yes, yes.

Kaylin Ong: All right, so just wrapping up, do you have any other advice or anything else you'd like to share with our listeners today?

Sharon Goto: Well, Kaylin, I wanted to thank you for really doing your research, asking really super good questions and bringing this important topic out to people that might be listening or thinking about these issues or maybe wanting to know a little bit more, benefiting from a little bit more. So thank you for that. My message would be that our communities are really rich. There's a lot of strength in our communities and in our families. And so I think the best thing during hard times would be to really lean into the strengths.

So if you need help from people that have always been there for you, that would be the time also to ask for some assistance. And the flip side of the coin is if you're in a position where you're seeing someone else and they may not be asking you explicitly, but you think that maybe you could share some stuff, some time just listening, maybe some advice, some resources, or just really just being there for someone. I think that would be my best advice. Very simple, every day things, just the humanity that we have for each other, I think would be, and really relying on our cultural strengths, would be the best advice.

Kaylin Ong: Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah. And on that, thank you so much just for being willing to answer my questions and sharing your knowledge. And I think it's so important to be generous with our time and share stories and listen and whatnot. So yeah, thank you for joining me today, and I wish you the best in the future.

Sharon Goto: And right back at you. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Please note: The views expressed by the interviewee are for educational and informational purposes only, are not meant to diagnose or treat any condition, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Seattle Anxiety Specialists, PLLC.

Editor: Jennifer (Ghahari) Smith, Ph.D.

April 29, 2022

Blake Thompson

Sociologist Peter J. Stein on Genocide & Discrimination

April 29, 2022

Blake Thompson

An Interview with Sociologist Peter J. Stein

Dr. Peter J. Stein is a Professor Emeritus of Sociology at William Paterson University and a Holocaust scholar.

Jennifer Ghahari: Hey, thanks for joining us today. I'm Dr. Jennifer Ghahari, Research Director at Seattle Anxiety Specialists. I'd like to welcome with us Sociologist, Peter Stein. Dr. Stein has a Doctorate in Sociology from Princeton University, and has been a professor of sociology for 33 years, primarily at William Paterson University in New Jersey. Most recently he was a senior research scientist at UNC Chapel Hill. Since 2018 Dr. Stein has been volunteering, educating groups about the Holocaust at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Author of nine books, his most recent includes; “A Boy's Journey: From Nazi-Occupied Prague to Freedom in America.” Before we get started, can you please let our listeners know a little bit more about yourself and what made you interested in studying the Holocaust?

Peter Stein: Thank you for the introduction, Jennifer, and I'm glad to be here. I was born about two years before the Nazis and Hitler occupied, Czechoslovakia. I was born in Prague. First couple of years of my life were fine. But on June 15th, 1939, Germans came in, and the Holocaust started not much after that. My dad was Jewish, Viktor Stein, and he married a Catholic woman, my mother, Helen Zdenka Kvetonova. They had mutual interests. They liked music, they liked dancing. They fell in love, they married. And the fact that my Jewish father married a Christian woman, pretty much saved his life.

Jennifer Ghahari: Wow.

Peter Stein: Because unlike the other eight members of his family, his brothers and sisters and his mother, were all sent to concentration camps in 1942. My dad was not sent until two years later. He was doing slave labor. That is manual labor in and around Prague, which was difficult and demanding, but he survived. So, then he sent to Terezin in Czech or, quote, "Theresienstadt" in German, which was a ghetto-labor camp about an hour northwest of Prague. He was forced - he worked on wood manufacturing, is what he did before the war. That is, he had the Bentwood Manufacturing Factory. So, they made chairs. Anything with bentwood. Tennis rackets, skis, ping pong paddles, and so on...

So, he was able to apply some of those skills in Terezin. He came back in 1945. I remember him jumping off a Soviet truck. About 12 Russian soldiers brought back survivors of the Holocaust. He was still wearing a yellow star, which was required. So, then we went back to democracy, but the communist party came into power, and it took my parents almost two years to get an American visa. We came to the states the same night that Harry Truman upset Thomas Dewey for the presidency in 1948. Sailed by, The Statue of Liberty, her crown lit up, the torch lit up, and I saw downtown Manhattan. And I wanted to stay up all night. Why? Because I was looking for king Kong and Fay – climbing the edifice with Fay Wray. Finally, my mother said, no, go to bed. So, we came to the States. My father came two years later. It's a long story, but basically he was arrested by the communists for trying to get his factory back. My mom was a governess for a family with two children. And we lived with them in Larchmont, New York. I learned English. I went to City College. Then I went to Princeton for my PhD degree and I've taught in and around the New York area, primarily William Paterson. Jennifer's alma mater and where we also met and the rest is history.

Jennifer Ghahari: Great. Well thank you for sharing that with us and I'm sorry for everything that you and your family have been through, again, even begin to imagine. And again, thank you for speaking with us today. In terms of antisemitism that I think it's used fairly often. Can you explain to our listeners, what does that term actually mean?

Peter Stein: It's interesting. Historians and scholars still research and write about it. And most recently the current Biden administration appointed Deborah Lipstadt, who's a historian of the Holocaust, to a position overseeing Holocaust and genocide developments. So, it's come to that level of importance. And basically goes back to the Nazi ideology that Jews are inferior. They're inferior physically, they're inferior mentally and intellectually. And basically they have no right to survive. I mean, that's the essence of the Nazi ideology. That they're less than humans. And one film that the Nazi's produced shows Jews as vermin, as roaches to be destroyed...

And many people hope that the use of that term and attitude towards Jews would change with the end of World War II. However, all kinds of studies, one by ADL, the Anti-Defamation League shows an increase in antisemitism, both in the United States and in Europe. So, much so the latest study is a 2021 study. And I want to make sure that I report the figures correctly.

Jennifer Ghahari: Thank you.

Peter Stein: They do something where they count anti-Semitic incidents in the year 2021. They discovered 2,717 antisemitic incidents ranging from vandalism, putting a swastika or something of that sort, to violence in the synagogue and Pittsburgh, most notably the Tree of Life Synagogue and others. So, the antisemitism continues and I have to quote one noted authority. My mother. And when she was still alive, I asked her, well, why do you think there was so much antisemitism in Czechoslovakia?

She said envy. And I think there's something about envy. The Jews for millennia in Europe were segregated into ghettos, they were limited in what they can do. But in the 17th, 18th centuries in Europe, they were given more latitude, more opportunities. And they went into the professions, law, medicine, manufacturing, banking, and they were succeeding quite well. And I think the envy came in there because for generations, Jews were seen as inferior, less than human, to be avoided. And suddenly Jews had power and some had wealth. But I have to be very clear that yes, there were rich Jews and there were also very poor Jews. Many of them, the poorer ones in Eastern Europe, in agricultural areas. But that antisemitism had been spreading for generations before Hitler ever came on the scene.

Jennifer Ghahari: Wow. And as you said, it's spiking again. And it seems that hate groups are on the rise again. And aside from antisemitic attacks, there's also been a large increase in anti-Asian sentiments and attacks in the US. And it seems to correspond, especially with Asian Americans, with the outbreak of the coronavirus pandemic. And in America, we're talking about Jewish Americans and we're talking about Asian Americans. They're not outsiders, but some people are treating them as such. So, sociologically speaking, how can we overcome as a society, this discrimination against our own subgroups.

Peter Stein: I think you hit the nail on the head with the use of the word outsiders. I think one way to look at all of these issues is who's the insider, who's the outsider - who are the we, who are the they, who are the people with power and influence and who are those with limited? And I dare to say that in every society that we know of, there have been some people with more power and they can use the power to label other people as different that as outsiders. And among outsiders, if you look at it historically, were women, African Americans, Asians, Jews, people with disabilities, people with different sexual orientations. Any number of those people who then can be painted as dangerous, as different, as our kids shouldn't associate with them. And you quite right about Asians. It's been an ongoing struggle that we're now more aware of...

And Asian community are saying, we want protection. We want equal opportunities. We want equal rights. Chinese of course were built sent to your neck of the woods, the West Coast, to build railroads, primarily male workers, very few women. And so they were doing that kind of labor. The Japanese were the “good” group. They were the ideal group to the World War II when they were suspected of being pro German and sent to internment camps, which is a different word for concentration camps. And they suffered. And if you look at just one quick figure I was looking at, if you look at the proportion of Asians in technical jobs, chemistry, other sciences, is quite high. If you look at the proportion of CEOs in American corporations with Asian backgrounds it’s about 2%. So, they're promoted up to a certain point and then I think the stereotypes come in.

Jennifer Ghahari: Wow. Thank you. Sadly, and unfortunately, obviously it seems that you have firsthand experienced of the damage that extreme prejudice and discrimination can do. And are you comfortable to share some of your childhood experiences in Prague with our listeners?

Peter Stein: For those people looking for holiday gifts? There's a wonderful book - my memoir.

Jennifer Ghahari: It is a great book. I read it probably in two sittings.

Peter Stein: Wonderful. You didn't have some Czech wine with it, I hope. I hope it was Czech beer. It was difficult. My dad, would disappear for periods of time and I always would ask, this is during the war, during the Nazi occupation, during the Holocaust, I would ask my mother where's dad. And also where's my uncle Richard, my favorite uncle, brother of his, who would always bring me stuffed animals and toys. He was wonderful. My mom's standard answer was, “Your dad's on a business trip. He'll be back as soon as he can.” I checked with my cousin Gerti. Gerti also has a Catholic mother, Jewish father and her mother had the exact same answer that her sister did. That is, “Your dad is on a business trip. He'll be home as soon as possible.” So, I had no idea. I of course, had no sense of what Holocaust, what concentration camps were...

None of that. I went to school. But we had German soldiers all around. And in my classroom, every classroom in the front, there was a picture of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi flag. The teachers were Czech, but they were instructed to be quite reverential of Hitler and the Nazis. So, I'll give you one quick example of what I experienced as cognitive dissonance. Monday through Friday, we were told in class, when it came up that the Germans were winning. They even took us to a couple of parades to honor German soldiers coming back from the east. But on Sundays, I and my mother would visit my Catholic grandparents. And my grandmother was a wonderful cook, wonderful baker, always had a good meal, despite food shortages. She could put a chicken on the table at six o'clock like clockwork. Every Sunday when we were there, my grandfather invited me and my cousin, Robert, who was nine months older than I into a study. He would put on his Blaupunkt short wave radio and listen to the BBC, the British Broadcasting Corporation, which started with the chimes of Big Ben then Beethoven’s 5th (sings a few notes).

Jennifer Ghahari: That's very dramatic.

Peter Stein: And we'd have a bulletin of the news. And my grandfather spread a map of Europe on his desk. He had a stack of black checkers, which indicated the German positions and red checkers indicating the Allied positions, including D-Day in Normandy. And it was just amazing. And whenever we finished with him at his home, he would say, “Don't worry, your dad will come back.” He told both of us. Sadly, my dad did come back, he survived - my cousin's father, Leo Perutz was killed in Auschwitz. But that dissonance, what was happening: so, for a seven or eight year old, who do you listen to? Well, I went with my grandfather, but he said never about this in school...

If the teachers get a wind of it, you could get into trouble. So, the whole thing, the war years were difficult, including a couple of bombings of Prague. I have a whole chapter about that, where an American squadron flew over Prague, the same day they were supposed to bomb Dresden in Germany. They mistook the topography. It's very similar rivers. And so we lived through that. That was one of the scariest moments, because my school is in downtown Prague and they hit some buildings, the church, so on. So, the whole thing, the war was there, but somehow we managed and my mother was terrific. She looked after me, made sure we ate and all of that. And at the end of the war, she and I both became vegetarians. Why? We couldn't get any meat. So, I had fresh bread, which I loved with several different mustards. No meat. No hotdogs. Not a problem in Seattle these days.

Jennifer Ghahari: Exactly. You didn't stick with the vegetarianism. Did you?

Peter Stein: It ended as soon as the war ended. Butchers opened businesses, stores.

Jennifer Ghahari: Nice. Thank you for sharing that with us. It definitely helps to visualize what you and your family experienced. And now looking at what's going on in Ukraine, I think people might be able to see some connections. For those who aren't familiar on February 24th, Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered his army to invade Ukraine. And for those who have seen images on TV at home, the images and the stories are just gut wrenching and actually anxiety inducing. So, I can only imagine what you feel, seeing something like that. Cause it seems you some type of similar things that you went through back in Prague. From your own personal experience, can you speak of what you see going on in Ukraine? And are there any similarities?

Peter Stein: How many days do we have for this?

Jennifer Ghahari: Exactly.

Peter Stein: It's quite tragic, I must say. A couple of historical examples come to mind. In 1938, before Hitler invaded the whole country, he went to liberate an area called the Sudetenland. Sudetenland: about three million Czech citizens who spoke German as their native language. And Hitler used that pretext to liberate them from the Czechs, who he accused of oppressing. Putin’s take on it certainly is influenced by that kind of structuring. Then in 1948, the communists came into power in February and again in one day dictated censorship. So, my dad came home from his office in February midday, and he showed me the newspaper. He said, democracy has died in Czechoslovakia. I said, what do you mean? He shows me the newspaper and there're several columns, completely white. Those are stories that were never printed. Critical of, in this case, the communist takeover, what was called a putch.

And so Czechs had to flee. 20 years later, 1968, the Soviet army, well, the Warsaw Pact Nations in invade Czechoslovakia. People are probably familiar with that. And rest of my family, the Czech Jewish family that survived the war, left Prague one person at a time, because the rumor was that if you try to take your whole family out, you're likely to be questioned, even arrested. So, I spent a week in Vienna with my dad and every afternoon at three o'clock, we'd go to the railroad station to see if any relatives, and it literally took two weeks for the father, the mother, the daughter, and the son to come out. And you see it, people weren't being bombed, but they were limited to one suitcase.

And since I was there, I did a little study. I interviewed people for a couple of days. Most of them were in their thirties or forties, single or young parents, doctors, lawyers, nurses, social workers, teachers. What we would call a brain drain. And I think we haven't looked at the full impact in Ukraine of the Russian attack. How many other people have fled, had skills that are necessary. And it's very close to a genocide. Certainly they’re war crimes, the bombing of hospitals, of children's centers, of theaters, killing women and children, tying them up “in the name of freedom.” And it's hard not to think about domestic situation. I'm not going to go there, but the use of the concept of freedom and helping people themselves, you have to ask, who's doing the talking and what are the actions like? What's the behavior. It's not propaganda. It's what they do. And it's troubling. And now, as you know yesterday, the Secretary of Foreign Affairs for Russia, Mr. Lavrov, is talking about, they “have nuclear weapons,” while we know that, but that's...

Jennifer Ghahari: The similarities are highly disturbing, especially because it seems like you said that, it is ethnic cleansing, even though it's framed in the terms of liberation. But as you said, everything that they're doing is not liberation. It's the exact opposite.

Peter Stein: Brave Ukrainians. I don't know how many people would do that to risk their lives.

Jennifer Ghahari: Sure. And as you mentioned too, it's not only a brain drain. So, it's affecting Ukraine itself negatively because they're losing all of essential workers. And by essential, I also mean what you were saying, like doctors and people that keep society running. Like all of these people, it's millions have fled. But then also if you think of the flip side that now these people are refugees coming to different countries. I know out here in Seattle, we're supposed to get, I'm not sure how many refugees from Ukraine, but there's supposed to be several coming. And if they don't have a good handle on the English language, so you have someone like a doctor or professor or any profession, to get started over in a brand new country and to have lost so much. It's really heartbreaking. And I hope that when refugees go wherever they end up, whether it's here, whether it's the UK or anywhere, I hope people are cognizant of that. That these people are not here because they want to be. It's not that they left because they wanted to. Similar to you and your family. You left because you had to survive. And it wasn't an easy thing to do. Obviously you were a child when you came here and your English is perfect. But for older adults just getting a start, I can't imagine how difficult it is.

Peter Stein: Even my little example. (phone ringing) Sorry.

Jennifer Ghahari: No worries.

Peter Stein: I don't know how to quiet this.

Jennifer Ghahari: It wasn't me calling.

Peter Stein: Okay. My first few days in an American school with my lousy English, couple of kids thought I was German. Stein. I said, Stein, I'm Czech. I'm Jewish, I'm not German. And so imagine if you come... As you have said to be an immigrant, it's a difficult status. And is there anybody there? Fortunately had a wonderful teacher, Mrs. Murray in the seventh grade who took me under her wing and she helped me with English and writing and she was wonderful. And you think about the importance of teaching for immigrants English as a second language. My dad took one of those classes. He spoke Czech, he spoke German, he spoke French, but he didn't speak English.

Jennifer Ghahari: Wow.

Peter Stein: So, he had to come up to snuff and pass the citizenship exam. And you're so right, because it takes you out of your home. Out of settings of familiarity, to a brand-new country where they may or may not welcome you. And yet immigrants have done so much to build up this country. I mean the number of immigrants from Southeast Asia, from Asia. Seattle is certainly one place.

Jennifer Ghahari: And anxiety that comes from that type of move, especially when it's forced upon you. It's really detrimental. So, again, I hope that people are just a little bit more aware and a little bit more sensitive and will just kind of maybe take an extra step to try to help people however possible.

Peter Stein: And government policy is so critical. We won't speak about the former president who wanted to stop the incoming of any Muslims, of anybody. I mean, just willy-nilly. Well, so then it's not surprising that when they come, some Americans are upset. “You shouldn't be here, go back to where you came from.” And that kind of antisemitism and anti-minorities just makes being an immigrant that much more difficult. And I got to put a plug in for education because I think that's critical. That schools ought to welcome different points of view, different languages, different cultural patterns. And not start burning, taking books away. And no, you can't learn about this one or that one. That kind of blinders that some folks have.

Jennifer Ghahari: So, it sounds like multiculturalism and education are pretty much key to overcoming this anti-racism, antisemitism, basically all types of anti-discrimination. Correct?

Peter Stein: I would certainly hope so, because you may get it at home, but you may not. And so that's critical. Speaking one other point about antisemitism that the ADL League found, they're now looking at social media and the spread of antisemitism there. And they found that in one year in the United States, there were 4.2 million antisemitic tweets. And they go into their methodology, which is quite sophisticated, but 4.2 million antisemitic tweets.

Jennifer Ghahari: Wow.

Peter Stein: So, somebody's writing it, somebody's reading it, somebody's sending it out. And that's new. I don't think anyone else looks at the use of the media in that way.

Jennifer Ghahari: Right.

Peter Stein: Now one gentleman just bought a big media outfit and we'll see how goes.

Jennifer Ghahari: That should be interesting. Well, thank you. And so, as someone who specializes in antisemitism and wartime atrocities, do you have any other advice or any parting words for our listeners? Anything else that you want to add?

Peter Stein: Well, again to educate not only in schools, but educate yourself because the media, as, as lovely as it is, can be influenced. Who's saying it? Where does the message come from? Who's got what kind of vested interest in having you, accept this as a fact, as opposed to just an opinion. But also to communicate, to talk to other people, to talk against people who have racist jokes or sexist jokes, or rather than just ignore it and laugh, suggest how does this impact other people. Anti-gay or lesbian jokes, or what have you, and to support the right to vote. Another key issue that maybe needs more attention and the democracy supposedly is helping people, encouraging people to vote, to express their opinions. Well, if you make it more and more difficult, it's easier for people of one opinion to get in it and not others. So, I just would hope for more tolerance, more understanding of other people, as the salvation and the Golden Rule is to do unto others, as you would have them do unto you. And I think that's an important rule to keep in mind in our lives.

Jennifer Ghahari: Great. Well, thank you so much. And again, thank you for sharing with us, what you and your family had gone through. And I'm very sorry that you have experienced all of that. And if we could have you back sometime, we definitely will. Again, thank you for talking with us today.

Peter Stein: Thank you so much for inviting me. If anybody has any questions after they see the tape, feel free to communicate with me or through Jen. Glad to answer and thank you for what you are doing.

Jennifer Ghahari: Perfect. And you had mentioned that there may maybe some photos that we could add along with the interview.

Peter Stein: Sure.

Jennifer Ghahari: Perfect. So, for those listening we'll put that into the transcript section on our website and you'd be able to access that along with the link to Dr. Stein's book.

Peter Stein: Thank you.

Jennifer Ghahari: Thank you again.