An Interview with Psychologist Jonice Webb
Jonice Webb, Ph.D. is licensed clinical psychologist located in Boston. She specializes in identifying and treating childhood emotional neglect.
Preeti Kota: Hi, I'm Preeti Kota, and I'm a research intern here at Seattle Anxiety Specialists. And today I'm joined by Dr. Jonice Webb. Dr. Webb is a licensed psychologist whose interests concentrate on childhood emotional neglect. She's a speaker and bestselling author of two self-help books, Running on Empty: Overcome Your Childhood, Emotional Neglect, and Running on Empty No More: Transform Your Relationships. She has increased awareness of the effects of childhood emotional neglect, and trained hundreds of licensed therapists in identifying and treating childhood emotional neglect in their clients. Dr. Webb, would you like to introduce yourself and share a little bit about your research?
Jonice Webb: Yes, absolutely. Thanks for having me on. So, I am a licensed clinical psychologist located in Boston, and I've been practicing psychology for, I hate to admit it, but probably like 25 years now. And during that time, having worked in a lot of different settings, I noticed that I started seeing this pattern among my clients, and I got very curious. What is causing this particular group of symptoms to appear in people that seemed to have nothing in common? Otherwise they were from different socioeconomic backgrounds, different cultures, different diagnoses, different types of families, and backgrounds, and yet I kept seeing it over and over. And I just got very curious and started trying to figure it out and eventually realized that what I was seeing was a very pure form of emotional neglect that all these people had in common in their childhood homes. And when I saw that and realized what it was, I started doing research among the databases of the American Psychological Association, trying to find research on emotional neglect, specifically childhood emotional neglect in its pure form.
Meaning not necessarily accompanied by abuse, but just, and not physical neglect, but just pure emotional neglect. And I realized that there really wasn't... It wasn't being talked about it. Wasn't being written about it, wasn't being studied. And that's when I realized I needed to write my first book Running on Empty and it's just taken off from there. And so at this point, then I wrote another book and that was in 2012. In 2018, I wrote Running on Empty No More: Transform Your Relationships, which took the concept and applied it further. And I have a blog on Psychology Today and emotional neglect recovery programs on my website. So it's pretty much everything I do now. I'm very passionate about it.
Preeti Kota: Wow. That's great. So to dive into the questions, can you talk about the process of early childhood emotional neglect, leading to a lack of self-trust?
Jonice Webb: Sure. So, childhood emotional neglect happens when a parent fails to respond enough to the feelings of their child. And it doesn't have to be zero amount that they respond, but parents who tend to minimize the importance of feelings, or are even blind to feelings. And there are many, many people in this world who are good people who want to be good parents, but who just don't understand that emotions matter so much. So, when they're raising their child, things like just ignoring the child when they're really upset about something, pretending not to see it, or just not seeing it, not asking questions, not being interested in the child's inner life, or what they're experiencing and not responding to that. When a child grows up this way, they tend to get the message that is not necessarily ever said out loud, but is communicated by a lack of asking the right questions, and saying the right things.
So, sort of like if your parents just pretended that your right arm didn't exist, and just acted as if it wasn't there, you would grow kind of ashamed of your right arm. And you would be like, "Why do I see this, but no one else does?" And you'll try to hide it from other people and from yourself. And that's what children do when their feelings are ignored is they get the message their feelings are irrelevant at best, or bad at worst. And then they block them off so that they won't get in their parents' way. They won't have to deal with them themselves. They just sort of build this wall inside their brains, not consciously, it's just sort of an adaptive mechanism so that their feelings are cut off, and this might get the child through their childhood, but it doesn't really work as an adult because we really need our feelings.
Our feelings are the deepest expression of who we are, and they provide us guidance, and motivation, and all sorts of connection and great things that are really important as we go through our adult lives. So people who grow up with their feelings cut off, don't even realize it don't remember anything happening to them that could make them have problems in their adult life necessarily, and end up just sort of secretly struggling with it, and not understanding what's wrong. And that is the essence of childhood emotional neglect. It plagues a lot of people who aren't aware of it.
Preeti Kota: And is it the parents that have the most impact on childhood emotional neglect, or can older siblings, or friends have the same effect?
Jonice Webb: That's a great question. It's primarily the parents, because the human infant is wired to need affection, and emotional connection from their primary caretakers, which in most situations are the parents. Sometimes there can be like, I've heard stories of a nanny providing it when the parents couldn't so there could be a substitute stepping in to provide it, but to be deprived of it, it really is to be deprived of it from your parents.
Preeti Kota: And then do those with childhood emotional neglect tend to be more prone towards any comorbid mental health disorders, such as anxiety or depression?
Jonice Webb: Yes. First I want to say all people with childhood emotional neglect, which I call CEN, do not... It's not like everyone develops a comorbid disorder. I've seen lots of CEN people who don't have any history of diagnosis and don't qualify for one when I see them. But nevertheless, they're struggling in various ways, but it does make you more prone to both depression, and anxiety. And I think that it's because when you have your feelings walled off, you're not processing them as you go through life, which most people just do naturally, you get upset, you deal with it, and then you've dealt with it. So you move on. But when your feelings aren't, when you don't have that natural connection with your feelings, they just all sort of pool together on the other side of the wall.
And because you're not aware of them and you're not connected to them, they just kind of mix together and they can turn into basically three things that I've seen, depression, anxiety, or irritability. Some people just become very irritable people, and it's because they haven't dealt with their feelings, or they'll end up depressed or they'll end up having anxiety, free-floating anxiety, or anxiety about certain things. And it's because they haven't dealt with their emotions.
Preeti Kota: Is there a certain factor that makes a person more prone to having irritability, or anxiety, or depression in reaction to the same thing?
Jonice Webb: I wonder that myself, I wish I knew the exact answer, but I don't, but I can tell you what my hunch is, which is that it depends on the nature of the walled off feelings. If most of your walled off feelings have to do with sadness or loss, I think you're more prone to depression. If most of your walled off feelings have to do with fear, or trepidation, or any of the sorts of fear based types of feelings, you're more prone to anxiety. And if it's more anger, you're more prone to irritability. That's my guess.
Preeti Kota: Interesting. So, how do you not confuse following, or listening to your emotions as a source of guidance with giving into your impulses?
Jonice Webb: First, I'll just explain that one of the things I talk about a lot and try to teach people to do is to pay attention to their feelings, and to listen to them. So I think that's what you're referring to here in this question, and to follow them. But that doesn't mean just like knee jerk following, because emotions can be excessively strong. They can be misplaced at times. And sometimes we feel things really intensely that actually are, we're feeling it so intensely because it's touched off something from the past that we haven't dealt with that feeling enough yet. And so that feeling attaches itself to the current situation, and makes you feel you can have big feelings over something that seems kind of ridiculous, or small. And it's because it's just blown out of proportion by the past. So, there are many reasons why we can't just knee jerk trust our emotions.
So, the way it works well is to take note of what you're feeling, process it with your head, meaning, think it through what is this feeling? Because every feeling is a message from your body. So what is my body trying to tell me here, by making me feel angry right now, could it be this, could it be that? And you sort it out with your head, and then you say, should I be angry right now? Actually, yes, I should. Someone just insulted me. What should I do? And then you think it through, and that way your body informs your head, and your head informs your body, and the two work together to make a good decision, and choose a correct action or the most correct that you can.
Preeti Kota: How do you find the balance of if you are using your head too much, it's like overthinking, but if you're using your emotions too much, it's kind of impulsive?
Jonice Webb: Yeah. Well I think we all struggle with that, and it really is a matter of just trying to really consciously do this process enough that you get better, and better at it. And we all are going to mess it up. We all do. There's no way to be perfect at this, nor should anyone expect themselves to be. Really for every human being who's alive, it's a work in progress. Getting our brain to work with our body, to get good results is the essence of being healthy, and living well.
Preeti Kota: And then how does indecisiveness relate to people's inability to trust themselves?
Jonice Webb: So when your feelings, so our feelings, as I said a minute ago, really inform us, and they're our guide to what we really want, what we need, what we like, and dislike what we care about. It all is communicated to us through our feelings. And so when you're cut off, I think cut off is a strong word. When you don't have a good connection to your feelings, then you don't really have the sort of weather vane that your feelings should be providing you. Your feelings, or the rudder is what I meant. Not a weather vane. Your feelings are your rudder. And so to use a boat metaphor. So it's very important to be able to consult your body, and get answers that come from your deepest self, which is your feelings. And if you don't have a good ability to do that, it's kind of consulting your gut, right?
A lot of feelings occur in our gut. We now know there are neurons in our guts, in our GI system. And there's a reason why you feel things in your gut, but if you're disconnected from your feelings, then you're disconnected from your gut, and you don't end up trusting yourself nearly enough when it comes to making decisions. And you're much more vulnerable, and prone to asking other people, "What do you think I should do? What do you think? What do you think of this? What do you think of that?" And that's a kind of dangerous way to live because people can have all sorts of opinions and it doesn't mean it's right for you.
Preeti Kota: So then how do you start to trust yourself if you think you're going to make the wrong decision?
Jonice Webb: Get in tune, get in tune with your gut. And start the process of healing childhood emotional neglect. It really involves getting in touch with your feelings, starting to value your feelings more, and paying attention. I've probably told hundreds of people with childhood emotional neglect, what does your gut say? Let's ask your gut about that question. And it's a foreign, it can feel weird at first, but if you do it, if you keep doing it, and keep paying attention to your feelings and processing it with your brain, it's a matter of practice, and changing old habits and filling them with new ones.
Preeti Kota: And then how are self-trust, self-esteem, and confidence related?
Jonice Webb: When you have a good gut sense, and you trust your gut. No one's gut is right all the time. When you trust your gut, you're trusting your feelings, and you're trusting yourself, and you're valuing your own internal world, and your own internal process and sense of self. So when you have that, you trust yourself, and you can feel more confident. And that leads to all sorts of good things, feeling comfortable in your own skin, feeling comfortable around other people. It's the process of overcoming social anxiety, just becoming comfortable with who you are and trusting yourself so that it all goes together.
Preeti Kota: So, you would say the first, are they kind of linear or..? Like increasing your self-trust, leads to an increase in self-esteem?
Jonice Webb: Yes, I would say so.
Preeti Kota: Okay.
Jonice Webb: Vice versa though. It goes the other way too.
Preeti Kota: Okay. How do you break the habit of dismissing your feelings to start accepting them?
Jonice Webb: Yes, that is a whole process. I developed this technique for people to use, it's called the identifying and naming technique. It's in, I think I have it in both of my books, but it's definitely in Running on Empty. And basically it just involves turning your attention inward, and checking in with yourself and asking yourself, "What am I feeling right now?" And then following that up with some other questions that help you identify why you might be feeling it and what it's coming from. And just doing that check in with yourself if you can make yourself do it several times a day, even starting with once a day or at whatever level you can handle.
And it's okay if you come up empty and it doesn't feel like you have a feeling, because a lot of people with emotional neglect have that experience that they ask themselves, "What am I feeling?" And that they come up with nothing. But if you keep doing it, and keep trying to tune in, it's sort of like that process, it's so simple. But what you're doing is you're connecting your brain and your body. And every time that you try to forge that connection, you're chipping away at that wall that's blocking the two off. And even if you don't come up with a feeling, you're making progress and you just have to keep at it, keep at it.
Preeti Kota: Is that kind of related to mindfulness?
Jonice Webb: Yeah. It's a mindfulness technique, because basically you're turning your attention inward, and you're putting your full focus on your inner world. And that's something with people with emotional neglect are usually not very good at because they're used to focusing outward. Everybody else is what's important. Everybody else, everything else, the outside world, and this kind of makes you look inside at yourself.
Preeti Kota: So, how does the need to belong relate to the need to trust yourself? Are they conflicting?
Jonice Webb: The more you trust yourself... So, interestingly, I'm going to start somewhere else for a second. Interestingly, people with childhood emotional neglect have a proclivity to feel out of place. And they tend to have an almost verging on social anxiety, if not social anxiety. And it's because they feel disconnected from... They feel like when you have your feelings blocked off, some part of you feels something's not right. It's like you're missing something that everyone else has. And I've heard many emotionally neglected people put this into words and say, "I feel like I'm on the outside looking in on everyone else who's really living life." Or "I feel like I'm living in black and white and everyone else is living in color." Or "I walk down the street and I see other people smiling, and laughing, and walking together. And I feel like, why can they do that so easily? It doesn't come easily to me."
And when you're cut off from your feelings or disconnected from your feelings, it can feel like you're different than everyone else, and something is secretly strangely wrong with you. And that makes it hard to feel like you belong anywhere. And it makes it hard to feel like you can be yourself in any social situation. So, you can end up feeling like you need to be a certain way, or do a certain thing, or act a certain way in order to get accepted and fit in, because you just haven't figured out yet that what you need is just to be your true self, which includes your feelings, and your thoughts about those feelings, and that whole process that you're skipping over in your life it's needed in order to be able to be your true self and feel like you really belong and are worthy.
Preeti Kota: But what about when during childhood, when you don't really have that mindfulness technique in hand, and you feel like with friends, or something and you feel like you want to belong, but you don't really know how to trust your feelings first?
Jonice Webb: There's no simple answer to that. I mean the real answer, the real, real answer is really work on being your true self. If you are your true self and your friends reject you, it means you're with the wrong people, and that's all there is to it. It doesn't mean you're bad. It doesn't necessarily mean they're bad. It just means you're trying to squeeze yourself into the wrong space with the wrong people. And it's hard to find the right people unless you are being your true self, and showing who you are so that those people can connect to your true self.
Preeti Kota: How do you change your existing relationships with people who have already learned that you distrust yourself, and therefore don't respect you as much?
Jonice Webb: Well, I think the most important thing to say about that is that people read each other on all sorts of levels that are not conscious. And we tend to trust people as much as they trust themselves. So, we sense how much someone trusts themselves, and that's how much we trust them, and how much we respect them. And so the best way to help people around you trust you more is to be yourself more, and to show your own true feelings more. And that doesn't mean all the time, just impulsively. It means being in tune with yourself so that other people can be in tune with you. And when people feel truly in tune with you, like you're authentic, and you're being your real self and they're allowed to see who you are, that's when they really value and trust you.
Preeti Kota: But how do you overcome the possibility of rejection, or invalidation when you show your true self?
Jonice Webb: It's always possible. And so part of this has to do with believing, with accepting who you are, and how you feel about things. And if there are things about one's self that you don't like, then you can work on changing yourself. You can even change your feelings to be the way to feel about something the way you want. So, in a way we all shape ourselves, but in order to truly shape ourselves, we have to be in touch with who we actually are, what our feelings are, and who we want to be. And so the key really is to tune into yourself, believe in yourself enough that if someone does reject you, you're able to weather that and say, "Okay, I guess that person doesn't value who I really am. Is that someone I really wanted to be in my life anyway?"
Preeti Kota: And then a lot of people have a self critical part of their self that makes it hard to believe in themselves, so how do you suggest overcoming that?
Jonice Webb: People with childhood emotional neglect tend to be very, very hard on themselves, and it could be, they had a critical parent and they internalized that. Or it could be that they had zero, or very little feedback about themselves growing up, which is true for many, many people with CEN. And if you're a child growing up and you don't have much feedback coming in, if your parents aren't giving you observations about who they see that you are, if they don't see your deepest self, and reflect that back to you, as a child, you have to fill in all the blanks, and children can develop a very harsh internal voice that's sort of like their creation of the parent they need. And that parent, kids don't really know necessarily, especially if they haven't received it, they don't know how to accept, or they don't know how to talk themselves through a difficult situation or a mistake. So it just turns into the mean parent, "What an idiot. How could you do that?" Talking to oneself the way you would never talk to a friend.
And so that can be a hard thing to overcome, except that the more that you can value yourself, and listen to yourself the more, and actually deal with your own feelings, then you can also start challenging that voice, catching yourself when you hear it, or catch yourself when you use it. And really start talking back to it, and say things like, "It's not true I'm stupid. Everybody makes mistakes." It really is a critical voice or a critical part of yourself is a really difficult thing to beat back, but it's absolutely not impossible. I've seen many people do it just by doing that whole process I just described.
Preeti Kota: So I think you've already touched upon this, but what strategies do you have for listening to your emotions and turning inwards specifically any daily habits?
Jonice Webb: Yeah. Doing that, identifying and naming, I think is the number one thing to do. The technique where you tune in and ask yourself, what am I feeling? And then there are other things you can do once you are identifying some feelings which involve processing the feeling and asking, and I created this technique also called the IAAA, where you identify the feeling, you accept it for what it is. Then you attribute it to a cause, and then you decide on an action. So that whole process pulls your brain and body together to start using your feelings instead of just shoving them away. So, practicing that another thing people can do is try to start identifying what other people are feeling, and if you're too good at that, it's not something to do, it means you're over focused on other people.
But just becoming aware of emotions, watching how other people handle their emotions, watching for emotions and other people, and what they do with them can be very instructive. I call it becoming a student of emotions and feelings. And just starting to... Once you make up your mind, I'm going to learn everything I can about how emotions work, what I'm feeling, and how my emotions work. Once you declare that to yourself, and start tuning in, it's really a great start towards fixing everything that didn't happen for you as a child.
Preeti Kota: So, would you say, I think we touched upon this earlier, but about balancing between the mind and your emotions, would you say that's like the rational and irrational split or I don't know.
Jonice Webb: Not necessarily, because feelings are not always irrational and thoughts are not always rational, so I wouldn't put it in that camp.
Preeti Kota: Okay. And then do you have any parting words of advice or anything else you'd like to say to our listeners?
Jonice Webb: Sure. I just want to emphasize that emotional neglect, childhood emotional neglect is not something your parents do to you. It's something they fail to do for you. And so it's not an act, it's not something that happened to you. It's something that failed to happen for you. And because of that, your brain as a child, doesn't record it, and then as an adult, it's really hard to remember childhood emotional neglect happening to you, because it wasn't an event. It was a non-event, right? And our brains don't record things that don't happen. So, it's hard for people to know whether they have childhood emotional, neglect or not, but people can go to my website, and take the emotional neglect questionnaire. And that will give them an idea of whether they fall in this camp or not. And when they take the questionnaire, they'll also be a member of my newsletter, and they'll be kept informed of every blog I write on Psychology Today, and every interview I do, and everything I write, and talk about, so.
Preeti Kota: Great. Thank you so much. I learned a lot about childhood emotional neglect, and I think it's very helpful for people to go back and see how that could have affected them today and definitely has a very influential impact on our daily life. So thank you so much.
Jonice Webb: Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
Please note: The views expressed by the interviewee are for educational and informational purposes only, are not meant to diagnose or treat any condition, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Seattle Anxiety Specialists, PLLC.
Editor: Jennifer (Ghahari) Smith, Ph.D.