An Interview with Professor Eri Saikawa
Eri Saikawa, Ph.D. is an associate professor and director of Graduate Studies at Emory University. She is an environmental scientist specializing in: atmospheric chemistry, environmental health, biogeochemistry, climate science, and environmental science.
Theresa Nair: Thank you for joining us today for this installment of the Seattle Psychiatrist Interview Series. I'm Theresa Nair, a research intern at Seattle Anxiety Specialists. I'd like to welcome with us Environmental Researcher Dr. Eri Saikawa. Dr. Saikawa is an associate professor and director of Graduate Studies at Emory University. She conducts interdisciplinary research on the environment, including atmospheric chemistry, environmental health, biogeochemistry, climate science, and environmental science. Her recent research contributed to understanding and mitigating chemical contaminant exposure among children in the west side of Atlanta, including heavy metal and metalloid exposure through the soil. Thank you for joining us today, Dr. Saikawa.
Eri Saikawa: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me today.
Theresa Nair: To get us started, I'm wondering if you could tell us a little more bit more about yourself and what made you interested in studying environmental pollutants.
Eri Saikawa: Yeah. I really don't know what made me interested in environmental pollutants, but I was kind of a geek growing up and I was always very fascinated by pollution. Since I was a kid in elementary school, I always wanted to work on mainly some kind of pollution, and that has kept going. So, here I am, I guess, but I was always very fascinated by air pollution mainly. I wanted to find a solution to mitigate air pollution.
Theresa Nair: That's wonderful. I think it's a really fascinating topic and I'm sure many of the people watching this interview will agree. We all have a little bit of that geek side. I think we can all appreciate that. Your research recently led to the Environmental Protection Agency's designation of a new Superfund site in western Atlanta. For audience who is not familiar with this designation, could you tell us what it means to be a Superfund site and why it was important for this neighborhood to receive that designation?
Eri Saikawa: Yeah. I'm not a lawyer either, but as I understand it, it is designated as a Superfund site when there is quite substantial contamination that needs clean up by the federal government. What happened in the west side is that there was a brownfield investigation at first for a smaller lot. It was about 30 lots that was considered contaminated. But then, when the EPA started investigating, they found a lot of high lead levels in those 30 lots. And so, they expanded and then it just continuously expanded. At one point, they said, "Okay, it's not possible to clean up at the scale that was happening." And so then, they needed the federal funding to come, and that's when it became Superfund sites. And now, it's including about a little over 2000 lots because of the funding that's necessary. I think that was important.
How is it considered in the community? I think it's a very different story. I believe that some of the community members are probably not excited that it is a Superfund site. It's very well known that when it becomes a Superfund site, then the value of the homes, for example, go down. And the studies also indicate that after the Superfund sites is cleaned up, then the values come back up, but it is a difficult time for other community members. They are already overburdened. We hope that it was a good step so that it's going to be cleaned up, but I'm sure the people that are actually being impacted by it, there are mixed feelings.
Theresa Nair: Right. It's positive and negative because the site's being cleaned up but then it decreases home values in the meantime.
Eri Saikawa: Right.
Theresa Nair: And that's interesting, you mentioned that there was some cleanup effort even before the designation of a Superfund site. If it's a smaller site, they're still able to begin cleaning?
Eri Saikawa: Yeah. The EPA has some funds to clean up the remedial action. If it's a small area, then they can come at the regional level and then clean up. But because the number of lots that were high in lead was so much higher, they weren't able to cover that number of lots with the amount of funding that they have. They needed to clean up over a thousand lots, then they do need the federal funding. And I guess that is necessary to be designated as a Superfund site.
Theresa Nair: Okay, thank you for that clarification. There was an article in the Georgia Recorder from 2021 which explains that you began testing the soil in Western Atlanta for slag in 2018. Can you tell us a little bit about what slag is and what the history is that caused the slag to appear in this neighborhood?
Eri Saikawa: Yeah. What happened was we wanted to understand the potential soil contamination because there was a lot of urban gardening going on. And then, what we found was that in some of the residential lots, we were finding pretty high lead levels that were over sometimes 2000 ppm, when 400 ppm is the standard by the EPA. And one of the residents living in the west side that brought the slag pieces, which is industrial waste from smelting. They're like rocks. It's kind of like volcanic rocks. They have a lot of pores. They're the remaining from smelting. And the slag that we are seeing is most likely from the waste from lead smelting. There appear to be about 11 lead smelters in Atlanta in the past. And so, we believe that's the remaining of that. And because of that waste, we are finding a lot of lead in those pieces. I think what happened was they were buried as foundations for the land to build the homes, but then over time, the soil was eroded. And then, what used to be the foundation is now showing up as a surface soil.
Theresa Nair: Right. I see. Was that material originally in the foundation of the homes then?
Eri Saikawa: Yeah.
Theresa Nair: Oh, wow.
Eri Saikawa: That's what it seems like. And so, what happens now is that the EPA goes to dig the soil to clean up. In some cases, they dug about eight feet down and they still found slags.
Theresa Nair: Wow.
Eri Saikawa: And so, that is going very deep. So, now what they found is that they cannot dig everything to take out and so they are only digging about one to two feet. And if they still see the slag, then they put the plastics to make sure that the developers that would come later on know that it is contaminated with slag underneath.
Theresa Nair: Okay so, the plastic doesn't necessarily prevent it? It's just kind of a warning for developers?
Eri Saikawa: Right.
Theresa Nair: Okay.
Eri Saikawa: Correct.
Theresa Nair: There's contamination past this point?
Eri Saikawa: Yeah, exactly. They don't have the funds to dig that much to clean everything up.
Theresa Nair: Wow.
Eri Saikawa: Yeah. Because, what's happening is that the residents stay, living in the house when the cleaning goes on. They're trying to clean up as much as possible, as quickly as possible. The priority is to take the surface soil out and then replace with clean soil.
Theresa Nair: Is the idea then that that amount will protect the resident that's living there, that that's enough of a buffer to isolate them from exposure?
Eri Saikawa: Yeah, that's the idea I believe.
Theresa Nair: Okay. And is the history that you just explained, is that similar to other Superfund sites throughout the country? Is that generally how these sites have begun, that it was near a factory or some type of production that contaminated the land?
Eri Saikawa: I think there are very different types of Superfund sites. Sometimes, it's contaminated because of the current operation, so the EPA knows who is causing the pollution. In that case, they can go and the polluter is going to be responsible for cleaning up. But, I think there are also a lot of cases like what we are seeing in the west side where the past contamination is causing problems, so then it's hard for the EPA to figure out who the actual polluter might have been. And so then, the federal money needs to come in because they cannot get the polluter to pay.
Theresa Nair: Okay. So if they knew who it was, then they might be liable?
Eri Saikawa: Yes.
Theresa Nair: But if they don't know, the EPA takes over?
Eri Saikawa: Yeah, exactly. I believe that the EPA is still going after who might have dumped these so that they can make them liable.
Theresa Nair: Right.
Eri Saikawa: That takes a lot of time, I think.
Theresa Nair: Yeah. I'm sure it does. And proving liability could be a whole issue.
Eri Saikawa: Yeah.
Theresa Nair: There was an article published by 11Alive on March 19 of this year that quotes the EPA administrator as saying that, “The new Superfund site is located in an overburdened and underserved community." Could you explain to our audience how this issue is tied to environmental justice and any relationship that exists between the site designation and neighborhoods that have historically experienced discrimination?
Eri Saikawa: Yeah. I think for this historic west side, it is a predominantly Black neighborhood and also the income level is one of the lowest in the Metro Atlanta area. It is overburdened in a sense that they already have a lot of issues that they're going through. And it is also an energy-burdened area, meaning that it becomes energy-burdened when you pay more than 6% of your income towards electricity.
Theresa Nair: Oh, wow. Yes.
Eri Saikawa: Atlanta is pretty well-known for energy burden, but this area is especially energy-burdened. If you have low income and if you are already paying so much for electricity, you cannot pay for other things. That is a very big problem. And chronic issues and the water contamination, for example, has been seen in their creeks as well in the past. It's not just the soil contamination that they're dealing with, but it used to be also a food desert, meaning that they didn't have a lot of fresh produce around where they live. And because they didn't have vehicles either, then they couldn't get the produce they needed. It's unfortunate because having this urban agriculture movement is really great on one hand, but then if there is a lot of contamination in the soil, then that doesn't solve the problem at all and creates another problem. So when you are already overburdened, then it's a really complex issue that you are going through.
Theresa Nair: I was actually going to ask you about that because I know you mentioned earlier that you did get into this because you were studying urban gardening. And urban gardening does have a lot of benefits for increasing food independency and increasing access to healthy food, but then you have this question of soil contamination. And I know that you have done some research with focus groups, studying safe gardening practices in urban environments. Could you tell us a little bit about... For anyone who might be using urban gardens, how people can protect themselves, or how people can know whether it's safe or whether they can eat the vegetables that are being grown in these environments?
Eri Saikawa: Yeah. So, I think the best practice is really to be cautious before you actually start it. If you are worried about it, I would highly recommend that you would test the soil. That's why we are also providing this Community Science SoilSHOP opportunity for people to test the soil for free for lead. Lead is not the only toxicant, but that can be a way to screen. And I think that's one of the most important chemicals that you want to avoid. Also, if you're now able to really test the soil, you might just create the raised beds and make sure that you are not having any potential contamination in the place where you are gardening. Because, it's the most unfortunate, I guess, consequence of this great cause that you're doing. And I believe that urban agriculture also does a lot for our mental health as well. It really improves your mental health, I read somewhere. There are really good benefits. Taking precautionary measures, I think, is pretty important.
Theresa Nair: Okay. There are some good suggestions. So if they do think their soil's contaminated, using raised beds, putting in potting soil would help offer some protection then.
Eri Saikawa: Yeah.
Theresa Nair: Okay, good. You mentioned the mental health impacts of urban gardening, how there’s some benefits. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about the mental health impacts of lead exposure. We hear a lot about the physical health impacts. Could you talk about anything related to mental health, how it affects mood, memory, or brain development in children?
Eri Saikawa: Yeah. I think lead exposure is really linked to the brain development of children. When you're exposed as a small kid, then that can have developmental issues. And I think what's really important is that once you're exposed, it's very difficult to go back to preexposure. Yeah, I forgot to mention, I think washing your hands if you are potentially exposed can really do a lot. And sometimes, we think that if you're growing food in your own garden, then you might not wash your vegetables or something, but that's really essential that you wash. You make sure that you are not having any contamination. And if you have pets, making sure that they don't bring in the contamination at home. That is pretty crucial too.
Going back to the brain development, I think the IQ can be impacted quite a bit. What I usually want to think about is the people that are going to be impacted by lead are also already overburdened. The distribution is not equal, and so we really need to make sure that the kids in the vulnerable neighborhood are really given the safe environment and we should do more to make that happen for those children.
Theresa Nair: Thank you. That's a good point. One of the things I found really impressive when I was reading about your work was that you're not only a scientist researching this topic from your office, but you also joined the West Side Health Collaborative and were doing some hands-on work in the community, passing out leaflets to residents and urging them to get their children's lead levels tested. Since you were going out within the community and raising awareness, I'm wondering if you could tell us how this information was being received by community members. Were people experiencing increased anxiety or fear or depression, or were people feeling more optimistic that this was going to be a short-term problem that would be easily resolved?
Eri Saikawa: Yeah, I don't think anybody was optimistic that I've seen. There were so many devastating, I guess, cases that I saw and that sometimes made me wonder if that was a good thing that we found contamination. For example, the partner that I work with in the community, she had a garden in her lot that was especially for children. She called it Children's Garden. And then, there were her grandkids that were gardening in that soil. And that was the spot where we found high lead levels and it was really with a lot of slag. And that was really devastating because that is somebody that I know well and she had this to do good things for her grandchildren. She was really worried obviously and she took them for blood test. And actually, I remember so well she told me that the test came back and one of her grandchildren, the level was high.
Theresa Nair: Oh wow.
Eri Saikawa: It was very, very devastating for me and for her. Yeah, thinking about that actual impact that it has when we talk to the residents, I think it is really difficult. How can we actually go over that, it's not something easy. Because if you're already exposed, you can always do a lot to mitigate, but that impact is going to stay. And so, the resident is asking me, "Is this child having developmental issues because of lead exposure?" And I cannot answer that. I think there is a potential that might be the case but I'm not a doctor and it's very difficult to say. And so, seeing those people, I think, struggling, what can we really do is, I guess, make that impact as less as possible, knowing that they are already very much impacted and they have to suffer from that.
Theresa Nair: Right. I'm sure that's really difficult, especially for that grandmother who was trying to make healthy food, grow healthy food for her grandchildren. I guess the best thing you can do at that point is try to clean it up for everyone from here on to move forward. But, I'm sure that's difficult. I'm glad you were able to work with them to help them clean it up and help to find solutions. I wanted to broaden out our conversation a little bit. So far, we've been talking about the Superfund sites in Western Atlanta and the impact in that community. However, I do want to point out that below this interview, we're going to be placing a link that shows where people can find Superfund sites near them and find out if they are near any of these neighborhoods. It is that EPA's website, and that will allow everyone in our audience to check their own proximity to Superfund sites.
Since many of our audience members are in the Washington state area, I think it's important to note there are currently 69 Superfund sites listed within the state. However, when you dive into descriptions for these sites, many are listed as deleted, final, or non-NPL. Could you explain a little bit about what these designations mean and how concerned for environmental exposure people should be if they find that they're living near one of these sites?
Eri Saikawa: Yeah, that's a very good question. The west side just got listed on the National Priorities List. NPL. NPLs are considered to be the national priorities for cleaning up. If you are living in or proximity to the NPL site, then that is one of the most contaminated sites in the U.S. And so, your exposure, I think that's something that you would really want to think about. And even if that is, I guess, you mentioned deleted... So, deleted, I think, happens after the cleanup is over. And so, hopefully, that is already when it's clean. Sometimes, not everything is going to be completely clean, but I believe that the cleanup process usually works so that it is much cleaner than how it used to be. And so, over time, hopefully, the value is going to increase and then you are going to have a better environment.
Sometimes that even though it's a Superfund site, it cannot be designated as an NPL. And that's often a political reason, it seems like. I believe that if you are in one of the, even the brownfield areas, the Superfund sites areas, you do want to be mindful of what kind of toxicants you might be exposed to. And if there is an opportunity to test for either blood test or whatever test that's available, I think you should take advantage of that.
Theresa Nair: That's good advice. If a person is experiencing anxiety due to learning that they're living near a Superfund site, or if they suspect they may be living in an area that's undesignated but may have some environmental pollutants present, what practical steps could they take to protect their health and the health of their family members?
Eri Saikawa: Yeah. This is so important. If you do suspect that you might be having some exposure, the data is very important. Community science, citizen science, I think that's taking a lot of power. So if you are able to find somebody that can work with you to figure out what kind of contaminants might be there, or if you already know what might exist, I think getting the data and then bringing that to the EPA, that is so important. And then, once they have the data, it is their responsibility to really look into it. I would really urge anybody, if you are finding any issues, see who you can partner with and then try to get the data that you need and bring it to either the EPA or the health organization. For Georgia, the department of public health. Georgia Department of Public Health is very interested. I'm sure there are agencies like that in Washington state that would work with the community.
Theresa Nair: Okay, that's a good recommendation. To start with maybe something like soil analysis, would you recommend contacting the local university first, somewhere like that to start?
Eri Saikawa: Yeah, sorry. ATSDR, Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, they usually host what's called soilSHOP. They might be willing to help figure out if there might be contamination of that soil. And then, I guess, just contacting the person that you are aware of, any scientists. It doesn't have to be somebody that you know. I'm happy to hear the concerns and then try to find the scientists near the people in your area in Washington state, for example. I think just reaching out to anybody that you find on the internet might be one step. And then, I think talking to your doctors is also important. If you're feeling some anxiety, talking through with your doctor, and then they might be able to refer to somebody else that can potentially help. I think seeking help earlier is a pretty important step.
Theresa Nair: It's very good advice. Was there anything else before you go? Did you have any parting words of advice or anything that we didn't ask about that you might want to share with our listeners on this topic?
Eri Saikawa: Yeah, I think I would really want to say that if you do see some problems, talking about it with your community members and then potentially testing. I think that is very important in trying to make everybody safe, especially your children. I really would like to encourage that. We don't talk enough about these potential contaminants that really affect us, so raising awareness amongst ourselves first and trying to distribute that knowledge to others, I think that's very important.
Theresa Nair: I think this has been a very interesting discussion and I want to thank you for taking the time to speak with us and sharing such valuable information and information about resources and where people can go if they have these types of concerns. And I just want to thank you for participating in our interview series today.
Eri Saikawa: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.
* To check if there is a Superfund Site near where you live, click here to access the EPA’s search site.
Please note: The views expressed by the interviewee are for educational and informational purposes only, are not meant to diagnose or treat any condition, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Seattle Anxiety Specialists, PLLC.
Editor: Jennifer (Ghahari) Smith, Ph.D.